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connolly1

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accord 2.2 desiel
hi guys ,my accord 2.2 2004 ,has a bad starting issue this is getting worse ,diagnostic read code p2004 ,freqency soleniod ,bought from honda ,still bad starting ,could the intake vavle/flap be sticking ? many thanks
shaun
 
Shaun what is the exact starting issue you're experiencing? Does the engine turn over slowly, or is it turning over fast but not starting?

My money would be on a weak battery.
 
Shaun what is the exact starting issue you're experiencing? Does the engine turn over slowly, or is it turning over fast but not starting?

My money would be on a weak battery.
hi f6had,it will start early morning ie 4.30am .more or less after 3/4turns,car runs great .then during the day after being used (its a taxi) it can start after 4/5 turns .or take up to 20 turns .or wont start at all ,it will bump start easily tho,the battery is about 7 months old ,and it will turn the engine over for ages no problem,but wont start it , so hence .park on a hill and bump it, i had diagnostic done ,and error code p2004 came up . saying intake manifold runner control solenoid valve incorrect position,after ringing honda in stockport ,they said it is a part called the freqeuncy solenoid,well bought it fitted it ,you guessed it no differance , but code had gone .have read on all the post ,but none of them have a problem with starting the cars ,maily running issues etc ,so am stumpped at the moment ,any kind of feed back would be greatly appreciated .thanks again ,shaun
 
OK so if the battery is ok and ***uming you used a genuine Honda battery (these cars can be fussy over this), then I would suggest looking at other easy fixes before looking at more expensive items.

Other things to check are fuel filter, ensure it's a genuine Honda part.

Also check the glow plug relay and plugs themselves.

If you can bring it over to Halifax one day, I offer a Honda Diagnostic service and can check various engine components. P2004 is quite common and whether it fixed the starting problem or not, you would have needed to change it
 
Just remembered you have a great Honda specialist on your doorstep, give Chris a call actually:

http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/11349-diagnostic-checks/
 
Just remembered you have a great Honda specialist on your doorstep, give Chris a call actually:

http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/11349-diagnostic-checks/
thanks for replies will check genuine battery and fuel filter ,glowplugs etc
 
Give Chris a call pal. He's very good at what he does and is dedicated to helping members.
 
thanks for replies will check genuine battery and fuel filter ,glowplugs etc
Hi h6had.had battery check ,at 2 different places both said ok, 12.8v and 656 ampp cca ,rated 650amps ,fuel filter was renewed when this problem started ,(bosch) still prob was there,alternator check ok, i have taken air intake manifold of and ,it was faily crapped up.have cleaned it all ,inside flaps etc,and senors too,checked glowplugs and relay all seem ok , doing egr vavle ***embly today ,if this all fails ,is it a trip to the garage lol
many thanks shaun
 
error code p2004 came up saying intake manifold runner control solenoid valve incorrect position

The Intake Manifold Runner Control (IMRC) solenoid is on the intake manifold it's around the butterfly valve.
 
P2004 - see http://www.micro-tronik.com/faultcodes/obdiifaultcode_p2004.html - I don't think it necessarily needs to be a faulty frequency solenoid (the IMRC might just be sticky). Did you actually clean this part when you did the inlet side?

This is the second one of these today... http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/11049-nitemare/page__st__20 ...what's going on?
 
P2004 - see http://www.micro-tronik.com/faultcodes/obdiifaultcode_p2004.html - I don't think it necessarily needs to be a faulty frequency solenoid (the IMRC might just be sticky). Did you actually clean this part when you did the inlet side?

This is the second one of these today... http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/11049-nitemare/page__st__20 ...what's going on?
yes took off completly and cleaned it (to the best of my knowledge) maybe i should take off again and re clean it ?
many thanks
shaun
 
I'm not sure... did it seem free after cleaning?

Have you read this thread http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/1127-slight-missing-or-hesitation-excessive-smoking-etc/ ?
 
I'm not sure... did it seem free after cleaning?

Have you read this thread http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/1127-slight-missing-or-hesitation-excessive-smoking-etc/ ?
hi ,just took it all of again and re cleaned it all ,seemed free from ***** etc,,took the solenoid off theside of the butterfly intake, and that seemed free inside as well ,just got the erg ***embly to take off and clean now .this is prob the last thing i can try ,still takeing a while to start the ****** tho,sick of bump starting it ,thanks again for reply tho .
 
Hi Shaun - If you didn't get a chance, please do read the link in my last post, as it has a lot of good advice. Here's another one (different site, but same engine)...
http://www.civinfo.com/forum/engines-transmission/80224-imrc-again.html

As Fahad asked earlier, does the starter always turn the engine over in a 'brisk' manner, i.e. it doesn't sound slow at all? I know you've had the battery voltage checked (and it seemed ok) but unless this was also done along with a load test then the battery might still be under suspicion. Is it possible for you to connect up to another vehicle using good quality/heavy duty jump leads and then see if your car starts better - this should rule out a battery problem.

Does the car still seem to run ok once started? This could suggest that the suspected IMRC issue may not be too serious.
 
Hi Shaun - If you didn't get a chance, please do read the link in my last post, as it has a lot of good advice. Here's another one (different site, but same engine)...
http://www.civinfo.com/forum/engines-transmission/80224-imrc-again.html

As Fahad asked earlier, does the starter always turn the engine over in a 'brisk' manner, i.e. it doesn't sound slow at all? I know you've had the battery voltage checked (and it seemed ok) but unless this was also done along with a load test then the battery might still be under suspicion. Is it possible for you to connect up to another vehicle using good quality/heavy duty jump leads and then see if your car starts better - this should rule out a battery problem.

Does the car still seem to run ok once started? This could suggest that the suspected IMRC issue may not be too serious.
HI jon_g , it turns over quite good ,just had baterry checked again ,and alternator input is 12.2v ,to the battery,on tick over,guy at garage said should be 14.02?, used another car (jump leads) started a bit better ,or it seemed to,the car runs great once started ,and will run all day long ,no probs, loosing my tether now lol,
 
Guy at garage is right about the voltage, as the alternator voltage should be over 14V, which can then be measured at the battery terminals. However, this isn't at tickover - you have to rev the engine and hold it around a constant 2000RPM to get the alternator up to speed, then measure the voltage while holding the revs!! Get someone with a voltmeter to help you check this out so you can be sure the alternator is working ok. Also repeat this with the headlamps and HRW on to really give the alternator a good loading.

If it seemed to start better when ***isted by a jump from another vehicle, then this does strongly point to your battery having a reduced charge. But whether this is because the battery is a bit knackered or maybe because the alternator is a bit weak still needs to be properly determined. It wouldn't hurt if you made sure all the connections to battery, alternator, starter and earth strap (bare, fat, braided strap at drivers side top engine mount on mine) are properly tight, corrosion-free and in otherwise good condition. If possible, try borrowing a known good battery from someone for elimination purposes (but it will have to be at least the same capacity/cranking current spec).
 
Guy at garage is right about the voltage, as the alternator voltage should be over 14V, which can then be measured at the battery terminals. However, this isn't at tickover - you have to rev the engine and hold it around a constant 2000RPM to get the alternator up to speed, then measure the voltage while holding the revs!! Get someone with a voltmeter to help you check this out so you can be sure the alternator is working ok. Also repeat this with the headlamps and HRW on to really give the alternator a good loading.

If it seemed to start better when ***isted by a jump from another vehicle, then this does strongly point to your battery having a reduced charge. But whether this is because the battery is a bit knackered or maybe because the alternator is a bit weak still needs to be properly determined. It wouldn't hurt if you made sure all the connections to battery, alternator, starter and earth strap (bare, fat, braided strap at drivers side top engine mount on mine) are properly tight, corrosion-free and in otherwise good condition. If possible, try borrowing a known good battery from someone for elimination purposes (but it will have to be at least the same capacity/cranking current spec).
thanks for the input ,he said could poss be the fuel pump,but would it not run rough if this was so, (weak pressure )from pump?
ta shaun _
 
I agree that a worn fuel pump would almost certainly cause 'full load' problems as well as poor starting issues. Did you actually check the alternator was outputting over 14V with the engine at about 2000RPM?

I found some threads which do consistently point towards battery issues. Please also bear in mind that the very first reply you received above (from Fahad) suggested a battery problem... he is very experienced with i-CTDI engine problems and his advice should be heeded. But a 'battery problem' might still be caused by an alternator issue or something unexpectedly draining the battery.

Changing the fuel pump is what this guy thought would fix it...
http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/10662-dieselcold-start-problem/
Quite a few of us contributed to offering ***istance, but in the end it was his hands-free phone draining the battery. So please be sure it is the fuel pump (a new one will cost you around 2 grand!!! Seriously!!!).

Here's a thread that sounds just like your problem...
http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/4131-accord-04-cdti-starting-problems/
and was down to an inadequate battery.

Jon
 
I agree that a worn fuel pump would almost certainly cause 'full load' problems as well as poor starting issues. Did you actually check the alternator was outputting over 14V with the engine at about 2000RPM?

I found some threads which do consistently point towards battery issues. Please also bear in mind that the very first reply you received above (from Fahad) suggested a battery problem... he is very experienced with i-CTDI engine problems and his advice should be heeded. But a 'battery problem' might still be caused by an alternator issue or something unexpectedly draining the battery.

Changing the fuel pump is what this guy thought would fix it...
http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/10662-dieselcold-start-problem/
Quite a few of us contributed to offering ***istance, but in the end it was his hands-free phone draining the battery. So please be sure it is the fuel pump (a new one will cost you around 2 grand!!! Seriously!!!).

Here's a thread that sounds just like your problem...
http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/4131-accord-04-cdti-starting-problems/
and was down to an inadequate battery.

Jon
hi jon_got battery re checked with another battery+booster as well (didnt start) alternator was good output as well,so jusy got to do egr valve now,see what happens there. failing that can only think of some thing fuel related
thanks shaun
 
Sorry you're still struggling Shaun. If you clean the EGR and still no luck, then I suggest you follow the advice given by Fahad (F6had) in his posts #4 and #5 and get someone to perform diagnostics using a HDS. I can't believe this would cost a fortune, but I'm confident the problem would be discovered.

The original P2004 DTC does point to a stuck IMRC, so you might want to clean that as well?
 
Sorry you're still struggling Shaun. If you clean the EGR and still no luck, then I suggest you follow the advice given by Fahad (F6had) in his posts #4 and #5 and get someone to perform diagnostics using a HDS. I can't believe this would cost a fortune, but I'm confident the problem would be discovered.

The original P2004 DTC does point to a stuck IMRC, so you might want to clean that as well?
hi jon_g the stuck imrc, is this the one on the right hand side of the butterfly vavle housing? or the actual freqeuncy solenoid with the barrel filter attached to it.,attached to the the top of the engine?(this is what honda told me to buy for that code),or did they just want £130 ,!!!
thanks again for your input.
shaun
 
hi jon_g the stuck imrc, is this the one on the right hand side of the butterfly vavle housing? or the actual freqeuncy solenoid with the barrel filter attached to it.,attached to the the top of the engine?(this is what honda told me to buy for that code),or did they just want £130 ,!!!
thanks again for your input.
shaun
Done the egr, was quite clean ,still no change tho looks like back on the diagnostic machine then ,thanks jon
 
hazley name='shaun1961' timestamp='1346863469' post='130091']
Done the egr, was quite clean ,still no change tho looks like back on the diagnostic machine then ,thanks jon
[/quote]
Keep us posted lad as iam on the same boat
 
Hi Shaun,

I have the same problem (only worse) with my 04 Diesel. Mine won't start on the key at all now in fact I've almost given up trying.

One thing I have noticed is that if I try to start it by cranking there is no smell of un-burnt fuel at the exhaust, even after cranking for 30 seconds which makes me believe there is no fuel being injected into the cylinders. Once mine is running It drives perfectly with no flat spots, smoking or hesitation. I believe the problem is specifically related to the crank cycle because the on board computer won't start sending fuelling commands until it thinks the system is ready to start. Clearly something in that process is not involved in the bump start process (or the easy start), because otherwise it still wouldn't be sending any fuelling commands. If I crack the problem before you do I'll let you know the fix.

A couple of last resort options for getting it started that you may not have discovered yet are:

1. If the road you are on is flat and you've got 30 or 40 feet clear in front of you, put it into 3rd gear, handbrake off, clutch up and crank. This should get you up to just over 5mph at which point depress the clutch, stop cranking but don't turn off the ignition, put it into 1st and drop the clutch. As soon as it fires, depress the clutch and give it a bit on the throttle. This works for me, but you need to get it up to 5mph or just above. It's no doubt a bit hard on the starter motor but probably better for the engine than option 2 below.

2. Final, last resort. The dreaded Easy Start. You have to be very careful to use a very small amount of this because it goes off with a massively big bang and can make the top end rattle horribly if you put in too much. Disconnect the intercooler top hose from the MAP sensor housing and put a very small squirt (and I do mean a very small squirt) of the stuff into the intercooler top hose. Leave for about 5 seconds then reconnect the hose. Don't worry about doing up the jubilee clip at this point. Turn the ignition on and go straight to cranking, Don't wait for any dash lights to go out. If you've got it right the car will start straight away with no sign of any top end knock. If it knocks you've used too much and need to use a bit less next time. Once it's running remember to tighten up the jubilee clip securing the intercooler top hose or the pressure will blow it off once you get the revs up and it will scare the hell out of you if it happens when you are driving along, I'm sure it's not great for the engine but as a last resort it should get you going and if you call out the AA or RAC that's what they will do but they will probably spray a lot more in and give your top end a massive jolt.
 
Hi Shaun,

I have the same problem (only worse) with my 04 Diesel. Mine won't start on the key at all now in fact I've almost given up trying.

One thing I have noticed is that if I try to start it by cranking there is no smell of un-burnt fuel at the exhaust, even after cranking for 30 seconds which makes me believe there is no fuel being injected into the cylinders. Once mine is running It drives perfectly with no flat spots, smoking or hesitation. I believe the problem is specifically related to the crank cycle because the on board computer won't start sending fuelling commands until it thinks the system is ready to start. Clearly something in that process is not involved in the bump start process (or the easy start), because otherwise it still wouldn't be sending any fuelling commands. If I crack the problem before you do I'll let you know the fix.

A couple of last resort options for getting it started that you may not have discovered yet are:

1. If the road you are on is flat and you've got 30 or 40 feet clear in front of you, put it into 3rd gear, handbrake off, clutch up and crank. This should get you up to just over 5mph at which point depress the clutch, stop cranking but don't turn off the ignition, put it into 1st and drop the clutch. As soon as it fires, depress the clutch and give it a bit on the throttle. This works for me, but you need to get it up to 5mph or just above. It's no doubt a bit hard on the starter motor but probably better for the engine than option 2 below.

2. Final, last resort. The dreaded Easy Start. You have to be very careful to use a very small amount of this because it goes off with a massively big bang and can make the top end rattle horribly if you put in too much. Disconnect the intercooler top hose from the MAP sensor housing and put a very small squirt (and I do mean a very small squirt) of the stuff into the intercooler top hose. Leave for about 5 seconds then reconnect the hose. Don't worry about doing up the jubilee clip at this point. Turn the ignition on and go straight to cranking, Don't wait for any dash lights to go out. If you've got it right the car will start straight away with no sign of any top end knock. If it knocks you've used too much and need to use a bit less next time. Once it's running remember to tighten up the jubilee clip securing the intercooler top hose or the pressure will blow it off once you get the revs up and it will scare the hell out of you if it happens when you are driving along, I'm sure it's not great for the engine but as a last resort it should get you going and if you call out the AA or RAC that's what they will do but they will probably spray a lot more in and give your top end a massive jolt.
HI ALTORICKY. many thanks for info ,if i find cure before you ,will let u no too
cheers shaun
 
Hi Shaun,

I have the same problem (only worse) with my 04 Diesel. Mine won't start on the key at all now in fact I've almost given up trying.

One thing I have noticed is that if I try to start it by cranking there is no smell of un-burnt fuel at the exhaust, even after cranking for 30 seconds which makes me believe there is no fuel being injected into the cylinders. Once mine is running It drives perfectly with no flat spots, smoking or hesitation. I believe the problem is specifically related to the crank cycle because the on board computer won't start sending fuelling commands until it thinks the system is ready to start. Clearly something in that process is not involved in the bump start process (or the easy start), because otherwise it still wouldn't be sending any fuelling commands. If I crack the problem before you do I'll let you know the fix.

A couple of last resort options for getting it started that you may not have discovered yet are:

1. If the road you are on is flat and you've got 30 or 40 feet clear in front of you, put it into 3rd gear, handbrake off, clutch up and crank. This should get you up to just over 5mph at which point depress the clutch, stop cranking but don't turn off the ignition, put it into 1st and drop the clutch. As soon as it fires, depress the clutch and give it a bit on the throttle. This works for me, but you need to get it up to 5mph or just above. It's no doubt a bit hard on the starter motor but probably better for the engine than option 2 below.

2. Final, last resort. The dreaded Easy Start. You have to be very careful to use a very small amount of this because it goes off with a massively big bang and can make the top end rattle horribly if you put in too much. Disconnect the intercooler top hose from the MAP sensor housing and put a very small squirt (and I do mean a very small squirt) of the stuff into the intercooler top hose. Leave for about 5 seconds then reconnect the hose. Don't worry about doing up the jubilee clip at this point. Turn the ignition on and go straight to cranking, Don't wait for any dash lights to go out. If you've got it right the car will start straight away with no sign of any top end knock. If it knocks you've used too much and need to use a bit less next time. Once it's running remember to tighten up the jubilee clip securing the intercooler top hose or the pressure will blow it off once you get the revs up and it will scare the hell out of you if it happens when you are driving along, I'm sure it's not great for the engine but as a last resort it should get you going and if you call out the AA or RAC that's what they will do but they will probably spray a lot more in and give your top end a massive jolt.
 
hi again altoricky
,just a quick one .when i start my car i wait till the engine management light goes out, and a few seconds later start her up .,if after 4 /5 turns of the keys it wont start , i then depress the clutch (it relieves stress on the starting of the engine when starting)then turn the key again,and sometimes after 5 ish turns it starts up .hope this helps, cheers shaun.
 
hi again altoricky
,just a quick one .when i start my car i wait till the engine management light goes out, and a few seconds later start her up .,if after 4 /5 turns of the keys it wont start , i then depress the clutch (it relieves stress on the starting of the engine when starting)then turn the key again,and sometimes after 5 ish turns it starts up .hope this helps, cheers shaun.

Hi Shaun,

Thanks for that, but I've already been through all of that and got nowhere.

A few weeks ago I decided to invest in some diagnostic kit which arrived from overseas the other day. No English manuals to help getting it all set up and how to use it, but a couple of days spent trawling through the interweb produced enough info to get it set up and working.

Yesterday I ran some tests and the only one it failed on was the Fuel Rail Pressure Test. Despite this it is not showing any DTCs (diagnostic trouble code). So far I haven't been able to find any further info within the diagnostic software about why the test failed but that may be just because I don't know where to look. Apparently the test checks the ability of the ECU to control the pressure in the fuel rail, but there is no information about what parameters are involved.

The bottom line here though is the test failed and as I am already convinced that my starting problem is essentially no fuel being injected into the cylinders during the cranking cycle, then the FRP Test failure needs investigating and resolving. Unfortunately, from what I can ascertain, Honda's solution to this test failure is to chuck a new fuel pump in. Well, at over 2 grand with fitting it's great business for them but quite frankly that's more than I paid for the car, and it's not an option for me so it's back to the internet. I'll keep you posted if I turn up anything helpful.

By the way when yours won't start, have you ever checked if there is a smell of un-burnt fuel at the exhaust?

Cheers

Richard
 
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