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Timing chain?

T

Tim559011

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Messages
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6
Location
Berwick upon Tweed UK
Car
Honda Accord 2005
Hi All,
Today I bought a 2005 CTDi sport with 150k miles on the clock, as a non runner. It's in great looking condition. The previous owner thinks the timing chain has broken. He said, when he last drove it, there was some rattling noise coming from the engine but it was running okay. Then he was just beginning to pull away from some traffic lights, almost at idle speed, and he heard a whining whizzing sound from the engine and it went dead. This is all the information I have to go on.
I'd appreciate some help ....
From reading the forum it sounds like the timing chain is an issue? or can be.
Is it actually a chain or a belt?
I've changed timing belts on earlier Accords but never the chain on a diesel. Can anyone recommend a good youtube account of how to do it? or a literature reference. Does the fact that it's a diesel make it more complex?
Sorry, lots of questions. But any help will be appreciated.
Thanks.
Tim M
 
Lots of stuff on here on how to change them and I think a few members have already done this job too. The injectors are the tricky part to remove without breaking them.
 
Best to do the oil pump chain too, as they're the one that usually fails.

In some of the threads about changing the chains, I put links to online manual's with the details.

FEBI do a timing chain, but you need to go to Honda for a pump chain, as FEBI no longer do them.
 
Thanks Matt,
Very much appreciated.

Can anyone tell me which is the best diagnostic reader to get? Although the fellow I bought the car from says he thinks the timing chain snapped, it's obviously best to see what the car itself says.

Thanks. Tim M
 
There are inspection covers in the camchain cover.
Pig to get to, but it'll be the best way of checking it.

When my pump chain. Died, I totally killed the motor driving it home.

I knew I could throw a newer motor in it with the later camchain adjusters for the same money as swapping the guides / tensioners / and chains on my early motor.

As it was, I sold some parts and ended up quids in.
 
Thanks everyone for your advice.

Today I took off the cam chain inspection plate and found about six shattered short lengths of plastic chain guide, all bunched up at the bottom of the inspection chamber. No sign of any chain ?? I removed the visible solid block of metal that has a tiny spring and a hole for a roughly 10mm diameter metal pin, which also came out of the chamber on its own and not sitting in its socket.
(I have photos but I don't know how to attach them here).

Any advice please on what my discoveries might mean? Thanks.

(Also: 1) Is there a Haynes manual that covers my CTDi engine? Haynes say No, but I see some Civics have the same engine and maybe there's a manual for them? 2) When removing the injectors, do the electrical connections at the top come off or are they an integral part of each injector?)

Thanks. Tim M
 
The block's the remains of the tensioner.

The link I put up top has links to an online copy of the relevant parts of the Honda service manual.
 
Thank you Matt,
I've been looking at your link and it's the perfect information, just what I need. Greatly appreciated.
Does the oil need to be drained before taking the chain cover off?
And do you know of an injector puller that works for my injectors, in case I need to buy one?
Cheers,
Tim M
 
If you take the injectors apart to use a puller, they'll need refurbishing at huge expense. (I was quoted £110 plus vat each!)

Mine came out with a bit of a wiggle and a squirt of wd. (I tickled them round with a screwdriver to break the seal)

What I did buy was an injector seat cutter just to clean the seats before reinstallation. Either anneal the copper seat washers (as I did) or buy new ones from Honda.

The sump has to come off to change the chains as you need to get to the oil pump to lock out the balance shafts. There's a really good thread on here somewhere.
 
Thanks Matt,
Today I felt like the luckiest man alive because all four injectors came out pretty much only using my finger and thumb! Having read some of the horror stories, including seeing the youtube session with a professional call out service that uses a 10 tonne hydraulic ram, and having seen the prices of new injectors, I was all prepared for an epic struggle. But they almost jumped out! I did squirt a lot of WD40 into the injectors' pockets and leave them overnight, and the WD40 seemed to have worked its way down to the tip of the injectors. So maybe that helped.
Removing the cylinder head cover .... I got mine off without completely removing the wiring and diesel supply pipes on the right hand side of the engine (viewed from the front) ... but it was an undignified struggle. Is it better to remove all that 'stuff' on the rhs?
Now to tackle the pulley bolt. I've ordered the 50mm hex holding tool and plan to get 19mm socket, extension piece and breaking bar in 3/4" drive. With a length of pipe I'm hoping these will do it.
Thanks for your help.
Any tips re getting the oil pan off? Is that straightforward?
Cheers! Tim M
 
All pretty straightforward, just time consuming.

There are a couple of bolts in the dump that are tucked right up by the flywheel that could be easily missed.

To lock out the balance shafts on the oil pump I used the blunt end of an 8mm? (From memory) drill bit.
 
My replacement motor came from a civic with lower miles. Funny thing was I had to get s puller on all the injectiors from it, as they funnel rainwater past the bonnet seal into the valley between the cams.

Of course on an accord the windscreen's much further back, so even at 150k, the accord ones came out by hand.
 
Thank you Matt, and for your reply to my PM.
What about the wiring and fuel supply pipes on top of the cylinder head cover, right hand side. Would you recommend dismantling those, ie separating the electrical connectors, unclipping the rubber supply pipe, getting the thick section of wiring loom out of the way? It looks to me that that has to be done so that the head cover can be seated neatly. But maybe there's a different way.
I have bought my 3/4" drive 19mm socket and extensions etc but I'm away for the w/e so won't get to do the pulley bolt until next week.
Great to have your help!
Thanks.
Tim M
 
Oh! and..... after reading the other member's tale of woe .... what can I do to check whether the engine is 'goosed'?
I will eventually have the oil pan and chain cover off, but can I check the valves have not been bashed? by turning the camshaft and watching the top of the valves? I'm ***uming my engine's problem was that the cam chain tension went slack, and that the oil pump was okay.
Thanks. TM
 
Tim, if it comes to it, I have a dead motor in my garage, but I know all the valves are straight! I think they' may be non interference though, so you could be good.
If there's anything you need off it, gimme a shout.

A compression test will tell if your valves are seating correctly and therefore straight.
 
Matt, thanks for your offer of parts from your spare block, very kind of you and I might well take up your offer in the future.

For now, for those who are interested in my excursion into the depths of my Accord's engine, I can report as follows:
I had some time to spend on the car this morning, even though the weather was mixed.
Having invested in the 3/4" drive socket, extension and swivel bar, I was able to undo the pulley bolt more easily than I thought. The 50mm hex head special tool that holds the pulley wheel, once I'd put my 1/2" bar onto it, fitted neatly into the hole in the lower suspension wishbone, so that tool was held firmly in place. Then I found that it helped to support the 3/4" socket extension with a wooden prop to the ground; that seemed to transfer more leverage to the bolt itself, and after rocking my weight on the bar three or four times it came undone fairly easily.
The bolts holding the cam chain cover were also not too difficult, albeit they surely took me 10 times longer than a professional mechanic. The 3 vertical bolts coming through the oil pan were tedious as I could only get a ring spanner on them, and turn about 1/4 turn at a time.
I thought one or two of those cover bolts were an inaccessible challenge, until I came across the invisible 4th engine mount bolt under the bracket that bolts through the cover. Once I'd found it ... a feat in itself ....I managed to get it turning using two spanners linked together, and then it was another case of 1/4 turn at a time using the open end of the 14mm spanner, but this time on my back lying under the wheel hub.
Then I was timed out.
So, next job is to get the chain cover off, then the oil pan. I'm hoping the problem is just that the chain guide got smashed to bits (there are bits of it lodged within the cover). I'm planning to replace the cam chain, guide, tensioner?, and oil pump chain. But let's see what I find.
Thanks for the help I've received.
Tim M
 
Really interested to see the outcome of this and thanks for keeping us updated.

You can post pics via photobucket, it's a free service. Just upload the pics there and insert the link to each pic in your thread here.
 
Hi All,
I have just read Adam Josey's tale of woe (in the Faults section) about failing to get his engine to start after fitting new oil and cam chains etc.
Just anticipating my work on my car: Once everything is reassembled, how do I get oil around the engine without using the method he used .... (spinning the engine using the starter motor with injectors not yet re-installed) ..... which potentially creates a multitude of problems with sensors recording fault codes?
Will oil circulate sufficiently if I just crank it by hand using the crank pulley bolt (with the injectors out)? It seems to be important to get oil into the newly fitted cam and oil chain tensioners.
Thanks.
Tim M
 
I have also gone throught the process and after it i also had problems with starting. The most common i think that might occur are: Not well tightened fuel lines(pump wont gain enough pressure). I have reused the bolts for the injectors but the best is to buy new as with the old ones 15nm and 90deg turn wont work and you will expirience the blow by :D. Also if you plan to replace everything incl guides and tensioniers you mught experience the whine which is very disappoiting after the hard work. It's not a hard job but time consuming and with a lot of details. I could also post the full list of every bit needed with oem numbers without the sprockets.
 
Thanks Nicola,
I will keep in mind what you say about tightening the injector bolts. And please do list the parts needed if you have time.

To All,
Today being Saturday I had some time to work on my car:

The short story is that I got all the oil pan bolts out, and removed the cam chain cover to inspect the damage. The cam chain was totally loose and the bigger guide is smashed to pieces. But the oil pump chain is tight. See photos:

http://s53.photobucket.com/user/tim559011/library/?sort=3&page=1

The longer story, with questions, is as follows;
Most of the oil pan bolts were easy enough, once I'd found them, bearing in mind I am doing this job on my back under the car. One of the 14mm (head size) bolts going into the clutch bell housing tightened as I undid it, and I had to coax it all the way out, bit by bit. This was the bolt nearest the front of the car. Once it was out I saw it had stripped about 8mm of the internal thread, but luckily the hole for it goes all the way through the bell housing so I think I'll just get a slightly longer bolt and there will be enough thread there to tighten it properly. The other bolt I had trouble with (in case this is useful to anyone else) was the lower, more central, bolt for the air con pump. I was terrified this would snap off as it wasn't budging when I applied quite a bit of pressure with a 1/2" rachet. So I left it, undid the other three, and went back to it from a different angle and this time it came loose in a normal way. If an inaccessible bolt had broken that would have scuppered the project for me as I don't have facilities for drilling out broken threads. I don't know what professional mechanics do when bolts snap, it must happen, in horribly inaccessible places ??? So, it took me about 2 hours to get all the oil pan bolts undone; Holy Moley, you might say, but I was glad to not be in a hurry and to get them out without any breaking.
Question: will the oil pan slide out now that I have removed the 2 rear mounting bracket bolts and the AC pump bracket bolts? Both brackets still press against the oil pan; I don't know if this will be a problem.

Taking the cam chain cover off was then pretty easy as I had undone all the bolts previously and I only had to take off the upper engine mounting bracket, which I had also done before and temporarily replaced. Luckily, as I said above, with the cover removed I could see that the oil chain was tight, in fact it is totally tight, no deflection in it whatsoever, on either side; I suppose that means the tensioner is doing its job? I tried gently levering the chain away from the sprocket at the top and there is maybe 1.5mm of movement, very little. However I do plan to replace the oil pump chain, and tensioner.
The cam chain, as I said, was totally slack. I had previously removed the tensioner through the little inspection hatch. The front chain guide is broken and the 4" middle section was lying loose in the sump. See photo of broken parts.Various bits of the orange plastic guide were scattered about, in many pieces. There is some minor damage to the casing on the engine side, hardly visible in the dark photo, and slightly greater damage to the chain casing cover, visible in one of the photos. I think both are acceptable, I will just file the edges smooth. There is a large circular blanking cap on the engine side, mid way up towards the front, which is partly worn away but not broken. I have no way of knowing if the chain has slipped on either the crankshaft or cam shaft sprockets.

Depending on advice given on this forum I will decide whether to go ahead and buy the new parts. At the moment I think I will, even though I can foresee possible difficulties clearing fault codes and getting the engine started.
Some of the bolts were ridiculously challenging to get at today, but I guess in theory if I have dismantled it I should be able to ***emble it. I have this forum as a resource and I have bought the Civic manual which details this engine.

All help welcome!

Thanks, Tim M
 
I would not recommend leaving any obstacles for the oil pan as it is pig of a job to get it in or out without any either (espacially having a few minutes with the liquid gasket drying). You will have to undo the bolts from subframe to radiator support and use a lever to lower it to provide room in order to get it out. There are places which are mentioned in the manual where you can use a screw driver to break the old gasket free. I would also recommend to change everything incl sprockets as honda parts don't seem to be very expensive to me espacially when you are not paying labour and after doing the job you will never want to do it again. :D. Here is a list of all the stuff that our local honda service are using i think the injector bolts are not listed, but the copper gaskets are. They are charging about 876 pounds to do the whole job including labour ( this is Bulgaria). http://media.snimka.bg/s1/5305/036853571.jpg?r=0
 
I would not recommend leaving any obstacles for the oil pan as it is pig of a job to get it in or out without any either (espacially having a few minutes with the liquid gasket drying). You will have to undo the bolts from subframe to radiator support and use a lever to lower it to provide room in order to get it out. There are places which are mentioned in the manual where you can use a screw driver to break the old gasket free. I would also recommend to change everything incl sprockets as honda parts don't seem to be very expensive to me espacially when you are not paying labour and after doing the job you will never want to do it again. :D. Here is a list of all the stuff that our local honda service are using i think the injector bolts are not listed, but the copper gaskets are. They are charging about 876 pounds to do the whole job including labour ( this is Bulgaria).
 
Thank you Nicola,
I am adjusting emotionally to the news that there is another great challenge in this process, lowering the sub frame. I agree with what you say re ease of access with wet liquid gasket, of course.
I'll need to jack the car up and survey what's involved with lowering the subframe. I presume the engine does not lower at the same time, but stays suspended on its upper mounts? Thereby creating more room for the sump to be removed.
Since the oil pump chain and tensioner are known to fail, and my car has done £150k miles, I'm thinking it only makes sense to change them even though they look OK. As you say, I don't want to be doing all this again.
Thanks for your help.
Tim M
PS, does anyone know: if I need to raise the car off the ground can I use all four jacking points on the sills as the prop points? Thx.
 
Should be fine using the sill jacking points.
 
this is how it was done by someone 18 months ago, full write-up with pictures

http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/16473-replacement-of-engine-chains/?p=196908



also read this post earlier in the thread, especially "An engine hoist is also required, as engine mounts have to be removed resulting in the engine having to be supported, plus it is very useful to be able to raise/lower the engine to get access to the sump and other parts. The engine subframe also has to be undone and lowered to get the sump in/out."

http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/16473-replacement-of-engine-chains/?p=195903


or even read the whole thread from start to end
 
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