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Trouble starting

P

ProXoN

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Location
United Kingdom
Car
Accord 2.2 i-ctdi
Hi guys!! This is my first post and my first Honda and i do love it! Unfortunately I have a huge problem!

My accord is 2.2 I CTDI 2003 and 140k on the clock. I brought it warmed up 5 weeks ago... i know you never buy warmed up cars but I couldn't say no to the price. Any way the car has problems starting and it would take around 10 seconds for the car to fire up (sometimes 2 seconds)... as time has gone on it will on occasions take in excess of 30 seconds and 3 attempts to start the car. The cranking is good and I heat the glowplugs not just start it as you would on a petrol car.

The car it self will start ok after it has been warmed up but thats temperamental and not every time (when the car is warmed up and i turn it off wait 10 secs and turn it on it can take 10 secs to fire up, again sometimes in just 2 secs) . The starter is good, the battery is new and the fuel filter is less than 2000 miles. When i got the car I changes the oil with 0-30W castrol edge and the oil and air filter.

One day i decided to put one of the diesel additives that clean your valves and injectors and it worked like magic my tank was only half full and the car will start on the 3rd second every time with no fail. A few tanks after that it started getting progressively worst and i just added one more of them 2 days ago... made a slight difference but starts between 2-10 seconds as it wishes regardless if its cold or warm. Its slightly worst when the car is cold.

The manifold is cracked and will need replacing but that cant cause such a problem as far as i know ? Ive taken it for diagnostic test and all rating are as they should be and nothing out of the ordinary was found.

My finances are not great at the moment and i already spent around £600 on parts alone and a few days of sweat to change a fair few things on it.

Could the injectors be faulty ? I found it really odd why adding redex made the car start up considering its mainly to clean the injectors ? Can any one give me any advice please as what it could be as this is really strange and since winter is fast approaching it will only be getting worst.

Any advice is much appreciated as the car seems to get worst every other day.
 
The usual reasons for poor starting are either excessive injector leak back or sticky EGR valve.

What dagnostics were performed... was it put on a Honda Diagnostic System?

Is your fuel filter the Honda OE (a Bosch unit with a part number ending in 442)? Many problems are cause by fitting the wrong filter.

Welcome to the Club!
 
Jon_G said:
The usual reasons for poor starting are either excessive injector leak back or sticky EGR valve.

What dagnostics were performed... was it put on a Honda Diagnostic System?

Is your fuel filter the Honda OE (a Bosch unit with a part number ending in 442)? Many problems are cause by fitting the wrong filter.

Welcome to the Club!
Click to expand...

Thank you and thanks for the answer. Yes it was put on a honda diagnostic machin. I have tested the egr valve and its fine. The oil filter is not genuine but i dont think it can cause such a big issue surely ? If i get the injecots tested and it is them swapping tgem would gix the problem ?
 
The fuel filters on these have to be genuine mate. They are the fussiest engines for this
 
ProXoN said:
Thank you and thanks for the answer. Yes it was put on a honda diagnostic machin. I have tested the egr valve and its fine...
Click to expand...
I'm disappointed that the HDS couldn't pinpoint the problem, makes me wonder about how well-trained the operator was!

How did you test the EGR valve?


ProXoN said:
...The oil filter is not genuine but i dont think it can cause such a big issue surely ?
Click to expand...
(***uming you meant fuel filter) actually the wrong fuel filter can and often does cause problems... the i-CTDi is unbelieveably fussy about the higher restriction often found in aftermarket filters. I would change it ASAP, but usually the wrong filter does often also cause Diagnostic Trouble Codes to be registered (typically P1065 and/or P0087), so less likely to be your problem.


ProXoN said:
...If i get the injecots tested and it is them swapping tgem would gix the problem ?
Click to expand...
Well yes, obviously if the injectors are faulty then changing them would almost certainly fix the problem. However they can be tricky to change (as they tend to stick in) and the ECU will need to be recoded afterwards (using HDS) to make sure that optimum settings are used (but, unlike older diesels, it will run OK without this being done straightaway).

Injector leak-back testing is a reasonably simple DIY task. Have a search of this site for a description of this. I'd also include the fuel rail pressure relief valve when you do this test, as this dribbling would also prevent the fuel rail achieving the necessary minimum pressure figure under cranking.
 
As Jon says any scantool is only as good as the person using it. With this sort of fault I can well believe that there were no fault codes. However examining the live data would show up the problem pretty quickly, provided the person doing so knows what they're looking for. I too would like to know what tests you carried out on the EGR valve to determine it's OK.

If the fuel filter is not genuine Honda please change it for a genuine one. These engines are incredibly touchy in this respect. If that doesn't cure it then it's back on HDS to look carefully at how quickly the fuel pressure builds up and if this shows a problem, as it may well, it's a matter of determining which component is responsible. At this stage changing injectors would be unwise as there's nothing to show they are at fault.

As an aside the glowplugs are an irrelevance in current temperatures. They only cause starting problems when the weather gets really cold.

Alan
 
Hi guys sorry its been a while since ive replied but i am here with my new findings and and update and its narrowed down now. I have attached a picture so you can see whats happening.

basically is beyond me how ive missed this first time round and looked at so many other things etc. I attached a clear hose between the high pressure fuel pump and the fuel filter (pictures are from pump to priming pump but please note that it was the first test before i realize that theres no valve in the priming pump and i did not make any more pictures) and what basically happens is that diesel after some time especially over night returns to the tank. In the mornings when i pump the priming pump car starts like it should, if i dont by the time it draws up diesel on its own it take many cranks as system is running dry.

All hoses and hose clips are fitted well and there is no air getting in from the engine side of things trough any hoses. So i guess it has to be:

A: High pressure fuel pump
B: Oil Filter

The problem is whatever valve is suppose to keep the diesel moving just in one direction its wot working right ? Any advice would be greatly appreciated again guys I am just happy thats its not the injectors which i did not end up testing at the end.



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gvu7PFx.jpg
 
Here are some schematics for the fuel supply, have a look for a non-return valve (not sure there is one) or whatever...
http://www.lingshondaparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17SED01&block_02=B__0301&block_03=608
http://www.lingshondaparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17SED01&block_02=B__0403&block_03=608
http://www.lingshondaparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17SED01&block_02=E__3320&block_03=608

For info, the diesel pump is a Bosch CP3 which houses both the high pressure and 'lift' pump in the same casing (so fuel is sucked up to the engine, rather than pumped up from the tank).
 
Jon_G said:
Here are some schematics for the fuel supply, have a look for a non-return valve (not sure there is one) or whatever...
http://www.lingshondaparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17SED01&block_02=B__0301&block_03=608
http://www.lingshondaparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17SED01&block_02=B__0403&block_03=608
http://www.lingshondaparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17SED01&block_02=E__3320&block_03=608

For info, the diesel pump is a Bosch CP3 which houses both the high pressure and 'lift' pump in the same casing (so fuel is sucked up to the engine, rather than pumped up from the tank).
Click to expand...


Thank you Jon Ill take a look and once i figure out what it is will post back here with findings
 
Who ran the Honda tests for you? There is actually an additional fuel pressure test which sets 3 targets for the car to try and meet. This will normally identify a pump problem even if the injectors seem ok..
 
There is no non-return valve. If you stand back and think about it you realise that the fuel pump is higher than the tank and so, left to its own devices, the fuel will drain back from the pump to the tank. In a system in good condition the reason this doesn't happen is that the system is air-tight and so the fuel can't drain back. It is very likely that somewhere in the fuel system you have a small leak that is allowing air to be drawn into the system and so allows the fuel to drain back towards the tank. Such a leak will not necessarily allow diesel to leak out.

All this is a long-winded way of saying have a very close look at the pipe connections to the fuel filter together with parts 2, 3 and 5 in the third link that Jon sent you. Either you have a minute split in one of these pipes or the pipe is not sealing onto an end connection properly. It's a common fault in common rail diesel systems and can be difficult to find.

Alan
 
Have you physically ruled out excess injector leak-off? That's what was troubling mine. It only takes one injector to leak back too much and it won't allow the rail to build up the required pressure to function.
 
It's a bit odd that pumping the priming bulb first completely solves the problem, so I think that Alan's air leak suggestion seems logical.
 
If it was injector leak off you wouldn't have air in the pipework, just a failure to build pressure sufficiently quickly. I've seen this scenario a few times before, although admittedly not on a Honda, and each time it has been air leaking into the low pressure pipework, usually through a perished piece of rubber pipe.

Alan
 
the diagnostic test was ran by an independent honda specialist. After further playing around with the car its now starting faster than when i got it back 2-3 months ago which i am really happy about and very confused at the same time, now its running great and starting very quick. So after all that playing with hoses and sensors and not actually changing anything the car just started running again I just hope its not short lived. Thanks for all the help and suggestions!
 
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