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Why does the iCTDi feel a bit gutless to me on a test drive?

R

Rakoribs

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Alfa Romeo 156 Ti
Hi,
I am currently looking to buy a 7th gen Honda Accord 2.2 iCTDi estate/tourer.

I have recently test driven a 2007 Accord 2.2 saloon and compared to my current 2004 Alfa 156 1.9 JTD 16V (sportswagon/estate) the drive was pretty disappointing as the pull and power could be best described as gutless.
This really surprised me, as on paper there isn't much to separate them for power/torque/weight.

- Kerb weight: Accord is a bit heavier, 1482kg or 1578kg depending on where you read it, compared to 1355kg for the 156.
- Power: is down around 10bhp on the Accord at 138bhp, compared to 150bhp on the 156.
- Torque (the important one!): is up about 25 on the Accord, Accord = 251 lb/ft (metric 340 Nm), 156 = 225 lb/ft (metric 305 Nm).
- Even the standard power/torque curves available on remap sites show similar curves, if anything stands out it's that the Accord starts out at a higher power/torque at low revs and continues higher up the rev range than the 156.
- The 2.2 iCDTi was designed to have a flatter response, more like a mixture between a petrol and a diesel, makes it feel less 'punchy'?

I'm trying to get a test drive of another iCTDi to compare, in case there was an issue with the last car that wasn't obvious.

At the moment its putting me off buying an Accord diesel (also the chocolate clutch), as I don’t really want to buy a car and then remap it just so that it drives well with decent pull as I expected it to as standard.

Does anyone recognise the difference I have noticed, when compared to other similar age/power diesels?
Or can suggest reasons why I'm not feeling the power of the iCTDi engine?

Cheers, Mark.
 
Hi mark I remember when I bought my old 7th gen diesel.
I was very impressed with the power so I would test drive another car
 
no problems here either, far better than my Vauxhall 2.5 6 cylinder bmw based oil burner. Try another car, or suggest the fuel filter is changed.
 
until it was remapped my old Accord diesel felt gutless compared to the *** diesels i'd driven before

refinement however was it a different league
 
The Alfa shares the same italian engine fitted to the GM/SAAB/VAUXHALL range i.e. Vectra's etc. It's not a bad lump but no way can be compared to the ultra refined ICTDI.

I would agree there is a difference in power delivery, but the Accord should feel at least on par, if not better than the Alfa.

I would also test drive another to draw a comparison.

Justa actually has a good informed opinion on both these cars as he's owned both an Alfa (1.9GTD) and Accord ICTDI.
 
The Accord power delivery is linear and more spread out i.e it'll have pull to red line not that you should.

Test drive a few to get a good feel for them, All Honda diesels seem to behave differently from my experience and none even sound the same.
 
Thanks for all the replies guys,
It seems to be a mixed bag with most expecting a good performance from the iCTDi in comparison and some not impressed with standard power.

I knew the Alfa lump was the same block and head as the Vauxhall's, but i didn't realise it had been pimped out around so many manufacturers offerings (don't know who the original owner/designer was).
Alfa's can be lovely looking cars (just look at the Brera!) and they seem to be designed (at least until recently) with a sporty feel in mind, but god they just keep breaking down.
Don't buy anything french or anything italian.

Justa - if you've had a GT with the 1.9 16V lump, how did it compare directly?
I'm not sure what "***" referred to lol.

If there was an issue with the iCTDi i test drove, i've only got a list of a couple of common issues so far (apart from the many usual possible ailments of any diesel):-
1. Blocked fuel filter (didn't know this one).
2. Cracked exhaust manifold (didn't notice the smell of fumes in the cabin).
3. Do EGR's get blocked up on the iCTDi? (mileage on test drive car was about 70-80k i think).

Didn't notice any clutch slip, but didn't specifically test for it.

The Alfa 156 has a definite 'take-off' moment, for example, in second when the turbo kicks in around 2k revs and pulls like ******y. I mean, it pulls very well.
The little power / lots of power change makes it stand out, but there is still plenty of power starting to accelerate from higher revs.
The Accord i tested felt very smooth and even, but there was no pull or surge that felt like it was getting anywhere quickly.

Need to get another test drive asap.

Cheers, Mark.
 
Hi Mark
Just to add my 10 pence worth, I would say that whilst the iCTDi is by no means quick it is quite refined and gets up to speed with ease as the power delivery is not so peaky. As your no doubt aware the clutch wear will hasten with faster launches and fast acceleration up through the gears, but having said that I noticed a slight slip in mine at 50k and now drive accordingly and it's still fine at nearly 62k.

Don't think that tells you any more but I hope it helps.
 
The 1.9 lump fitted to the Alfa etc is a fiat engine..
 
is the clutch really such a big deal no the cdti, ive done 40k in the 1.5 years I have owned mine, and I drive it farily hard clutch is as good as the day I picked it up. I think theres allot of focus on the clutch as it is one of the only things which has potential to go wrong.

The accord doesnt feel 'quick' as it is so refined, and there is little engine/ road noise, look at your speedo and its a deferent story.

I would say the car you test drove needs a ****** good survice, there very fussy diesel engines and have to be treated right, genuine fuel filter, 0-30w oil, genuine oil filter etc
 
spudowen said:
is the clutch really such a big deal no the cdti, ive done 40k in the 1.5 years I have owned mine, and I drive it farily hard clutch is as good as the day I picked it up. I think theres allot of focus on the clutch as it is one of the only things which has potential to go wrong.

The accord doesnt feel 'quick' as it is so refined, and there is little engine/ road noise, look at your speedo and its a deferent story.

I would say the car you test drove needs a ****** good survice, there very fussy diesel engines and have to be treated right, genuine fuel filter, 0-30w oil, genuine oil filter etc
Click to expand...

Mine has done 178.000 and the clutch is as I would expect, suspect some on here are too heavy right footed, or think they a formula one engine under the bonnet, or maybe? bringing the VSA into play and not seeing the light flashing. Whatever!
 
As mentioned above, the i-CTDi is very refined and will go surprisingly fast without too much efffort, but they're not nippy through the gears. I've always considered that the big problem with diesels (whatever the bhp and torque figures) is the limited rev range... you only have about half the 'decent performance' rev range of a petrol engine, making gearchanges a significant overhead (particularly noticeable in 1st and 2nd during traffic light drag races). A great pity that the diesel maximum RPM is so low compared to a basic petrol engine - particularly as that would also multiply up the BHP - but I am aware of the necessary constraints.

I've never driven an automatic diesel, I imagine the torque converter makes for a far more impressive power delivery?
 
My estate diesel has the stage 1 remap + egr delete so when the turbo kicks in it actually pulls pretty well. The torque is great and power is smooth through the rev range, this is coming from someone who's been driving an accord type r for the last 3 years. I do miss the old atr though :(
 
Well ive got a stage 1 MAP and EGR delete my tourer defo dont hang about tons of low down torque mine pulls like an express train very swift acceleration i test drive loads of diesels and petrols in my working day ive not come across many that i could say would see off my trusty tourer.
 
ALT said:
Well ive got a stage 1 MAP and EGR delete my tourer defo dont hang about tons of low down torque mine pulls like an express train very swift acceleration i test drive loads of diesels and petrols in my working day ive not come across many that i could say would see off my trusty tourer.
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You haven't driven many fast petrol-engined cars, then! :p

Diesels are great for many things (haulage, portable electrical generators, locomotives, boats, ploughing, farm machinery in general, long-distance motorway cruising), but never for lively driving (remapped or not). My petrol Toyota ia in a vastly different performance league to my diesel Honda and no amount of remapping is going to change that! :eek:
 
spoonage said:
My estate diesel has the stage 1 remap + egr delete so when the turbo kicks in it actually pulls pretty well. The torque is great and power is smooth through the rev range, this is coming from someone who's been driving an accord type r for the last 3 years. I do miss the old atr though :(
Click to expand...

That's interesting, who EGR OFF'd your car mate?
 
Jon_G said:
You haven't driven many fast petrol-engined cars, then! :p

Diesels are great for many things (haulage, portable electrical generators, locomotives, boats, ploughing, farm machinery in general, long-distance motorway cruising), but never for lively driving (remapped or not). My petrol Toyota ia in a vastly different performance league to my diesel Honda and no amount of remapping is going to change that! :eek:
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LOL ive driven tons of fast petrols i had a chevy camaro up till a few years ago i even worked for a subaru main dealer at one time i was compering diesel like for like and HP like for like not really petrols i had an sri vec estate before this honda which was 140 hp the honda before it was remapped was about the same hp i recon the honda was quicker of the mark a friend of mine had chipped golf gtd diesel i couldnt catch that with my vec you can get some very good results from a tuned diesel engine the only problem is that you have a narrow rev range and you have to keep the diesel on the boil.
 
ALT said:
LOL ive driven tons of fast petrols i had a chevy camaro up till a few years ago i even worked for a subaru main dealer at one time i was compering diesel like for like and HP like for like not really petrols i had an sri vec estate before this honda which was 140 hp the honda before it was remapped was about the same hp i recon the honda was quicker of the mark a friend of mine had chipped golf gtd diesel i couldnt catch that with my vec you can get some very good results from a tuned diesel engine the only problem is that you have a narrow rev range and you have to keep the diesel on the boil.
Click to expand...
OK, OK, I apologise... you have driven a few fast petrol-engined cars!

But, for me, you summed up the big diesel performance issue in the last sentence - the narrow rev range. Yes, off the mark a diesel isn't too bad initially, but then runs out of revs almost immediately and requires a gear change into second... then the same again, so into third... only then do I feel that the impressive i-CTDi engine torque has something to work against and thus pull nicely. I'm really not anti-diesel at all and do enjoy the wave of torque in the higher gears that make accelerating on the move so relaxing, i.e. 50-70MPH performance in top gear. All very nice for motorway cruising with decent MPG, which is exactly why I bought it. But the official 0-60 time is poor and there is no way it would keep up with our Toyota MR2 in a drag race, nor even my previous car, a '95 Vectra 2.0 GLS. Not many diesel-engined vehicles get used in motorsport... there is a reason for this!
 
m444lyx said:
Hahaha, mine feels 10x better with EGR off.. The car that was test driven must have an EGR thats on its way out
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If the EGR was stuck partially open at low revs it would lose power, but wouldn't the dreaded management light come on?
Had loads of problems with an EGR valve in the past, the Alfa/Vauxhall diesel lump is bad for it.
Mark,
 
I had a vectra Sri cdti 150 (the fiat engine) and have to say that imo, it was a better engine than the Honda until fahad mapped it (stage 2, egr off). I did have the egr go on the vectra as well.
Both were better than the 2.2 duratorq engine in my mondeo...pap!! :(
 
I had the EGR prob with mine thats why i had it mapped out and a atage 1 tune it never brought the engine management light on when it used to play up.
 
if you want some fun with a diesel engine check this out its F*****G NUTS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24afjVqm2Uw
 
Haha!! Standard c180 with a faddy remap!? Looks pretty wired seeing the P*** of black smoke
 
spoonage said:
You did it for the previous owner and then i bought it.
Click to expand...

Ah i see - which one is it bro, who was the owner?

I did wonder as i don't recall meeting you that's all..
 
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