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Accord VII 2.2 Tourer hesitating/stalling - OBD codes P16A4, P0339, P0335

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AmboMan

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Accord VII 2.2 Toure
Hi all,

Came across this thread whilst trying to solve my own problem, which has some similarities to this, so hoping someone with more nous than me can steer me in the right direction! Apologies in advance for the long message, just trying to make sure I have covered everything.

I have a 2006 Accord Tourer 2.2 i-CTDi, owned from 2007 as near-new dealer ex-demo. Problems started about a month ago. Car had previously been running fine and I had been driving for about half an hour with no problems, so engine nice and warm. Stopped to drop something off somewhere. After about 20-30 minutes, tried to start the car again and cranked nice and hard (fairly new battery), but just refused to catch. Check engine light came on. Tried a few more attempts, still nothing. Decided to leave it overnight. Following morning, started fine, and although still had CE light, didn’t experience any further problems. Light went out after a couple more runs, so thought no more about it - thought I had inadvertently flooded engine or something.

Then a few days later, approaching home (engine warm again), doing about 25mph, car hesitated or stuttered really briefly. Initially, I thought I had maybe ridden the clutch a bit or slipped on it or something, as I was slowing down for a 20mph zone. Nothing else seemed to happen after that, and no warnings on dash, so again, paid little attention.

Started to get a few more of these incidents of hesitating/stuttering under various driving conditions/speeds, so obviously something brewing. Then earlier this week got another hesitation as I was pulling away from some lights, and a couple of seconds later the engine died and the CE light came on. As I still had some momentum, I tried to use it to bump start the car, and although I got the normal ‘kangaroo’ action, it didn’t start the engine. I pulled over, turned the ignition off, and could not then start the car again. Same as the first time - strong cranking, but no firing. Tried a couple more times - nothing. I waited about 15-20 minutes tried again, and started immediately. CE light stayed on, but otherwise driving OK. Had to stop off after about 5 minutes for a job. About an hour later, car started again and I got home without further incident. CE light went out again after a day or two. By this stage I knew I had to get car looked at, but my normal mechanic is on holiday, won’t be back for a fortnight! Decided to order an OBD Bluetooth adapter to see what was coming up.

incidentally, none of the hesitations have occurred with the engine being under heavy demand. Mostly I was on cruise control, or manually on stable demand. As far as I recall, only the above traffic light hesitation was under acceleration, and that was not aggressive.

Last night, about 15-20 minutes into a drive home, whilst doing about 60mph, engine shut off again, CE light came on. As before, tried to use momentum to bump start car without success, so pulled over. Again, strong cranking, but no firing. Was beginning to wonder if I had a fuel filter problem (due for replacement, actually probably overdue…), so thought maybe a few squeezes of the primer bulb might work. Tried a couple of times, but no change. After about 30 minutes, although CE light still on, started as normal, managed to get home without further incident.

This afternoon, OBD adapter arrived. Seems to work great, but having expected a fuel problem somewhere, was surprised to get the following (in this order):

Car Scanner ELM OBD2
DTC report
Selected brand: Honda

============1==============
P16A4
Raw code: 16A4
ECU: 12
Status: Confirmed

============2==============
P0339
Raw code: 0339
ECU: 12
Status: Confirmed
Crankshaft position (CKP) sensor - circuit intermittent
Crankshaft Position (CKP) Sensor Circuit Intermittent Interruption

============3==============
P0335
Raw code: 0335
ECU: 12
Status: Confirmed
Crankshaft position (CKP) sensor - circuit malfunction
Crankshaft Position (CKP) Sensor Circuit No Signal


So, any thoughts on where to start? Might the governor messages be a false flag as has potentially been suggested in another thread, and I should start with the fuel filter, clear the errors and see what happens? My worry is that this may actually be an ECU problem and I am screwed. However, I am hoping it might just be a dodgy connection or something, given the intermittent message. When it is not hesitating or stalling, the car runs fine. I am happy to try and replace the sensor if needed, though I am guessing it may not be super easy to get to (can’t find a reference for a model VII, only model VI or VIII), but hoping someone can give me a hint!

Thanks in advance!
 
Crank errors are common when the engine has failed to start, but it doesn’t normally mean it a faulty crank sensor circuit issue (sensor or pickup). These symptoms are consistent with a faulty fuel pressure relief valve on the end of the rail. It’s a common issue, search the forum and just change it to eliminate that. Also change the fuel filter for good measure and use a genuine one.
 
F6HAD said:
Crank errors are common when the engine has failed to start, but it doesn’t normally mean it a faulty crank sensor circuit issue (sensor or pickup). These symptoms are consistent with a faulty fuel pressure relief valve on the end of the rail. It’s a common issue, search the forum and just change it to eliminate that. Also change the fuel filter for good measure and use a genuine one.
Click to expand...

Thanks so much for the reply. I will look into the fuel pressure relief valve as you suggest. Is this a competent amateur job I can do, or do I need a bucket load of special tools for this? Fuel filter already ordered (a Bosch) but can change, are you suggesting another? When you say genuine, do you mean order from a Honda dealer? And is there a specific part for the FPR valve (guessing I may find the answer to that as I search forum)? Thanks again for the help - going to start dismantling!
 
Hey @F6HAD is this the kind of part you are referring to? The compatibility list seems to suggest this is not suitable (saloon only), but surely for an engine part that is not an issue (another part supposedly correct for my car (tourer) shows same engine code, just different body code)? Some of the threads I have looked at seem to suggest this is not a hard fix, just need the right sockets and a torque wrench, both of which I have (though cannot find torque setting?). However, any gotchas I should know about? I’m guessing the high pressure is only an issue when the engine is running - whilst off should be none or maybe low residual pressure? Sorry for all the questions, a lot of this stuff goes a little over my head, but I can weald a spanner! Thanks in advance.
 
Also now I have taken engine cover off, can see there is a FP sensor at the other end of the rail. Is this normally replaced along with FPR, or is this part normally OK?
 
That should be the correct part and it’s a simple bolt off and bolt on replacement job. You might get a bit off fuel run out of the rail so catch it with a rag or something. The hardest bit is normally getting a decent socket over the nut and having enough leverage as it will be on very tight for obvious reasons.

search the forum plenty have written about this job and their tips.
 
Thanks @F6HAD. So to be clear, just valve on left of rail, near PS pump needs doing, not sensor on right? I think I saw somewhere about loosening the PS pump to get a bit more access, but I already have a small leak on the PS pump (had to replace HP hose a while ago, now leaking from somewhere below but can’t trace - but that is for another day!), so will try and avoid that if I can. I have searched a lot on this forum for ‘replace fuel pressure relief’ or just ‘fuel pressure relief’, and am finding only 1 and a handful of other non-specific links that are not a great help on replacing it, and can’t find anything in the DIY forum. Am I searching wrong? Or can you provide a link?

Finally, now I have got to fuel pump area, I have discovered I have ordered the wrong one, despite all the parts sites telling me it is the right one. I ordered the simple can type one with the two inlet/outlet ports on the top, but turns out mine is the screw in type -doh. You mentioned a genuine part for this, and they are available from e.g. Cox, but significantly more expensive. I realise there is a quality issue here, but is Bosch not a good alternative? Given the various others problems, much as I love this car and will miss it, if I can make it limp on another 5,000 miles I will be happy - it has already given me nearly 220,000 damn good miles with little to complain about.

Thanks again in advance. I really appreciate your help. Would even be tempted to have had the EGR fix you offer done under different circumstances, even having to drive up from Essex!
 
Yes it’s the one on the left of the rail, it’s best to remove whatever you need to so you can ensure you have a solid purchase on the bolt with your socket and plenty of leverage.

You’ve ended up with the pre facelift accord fuel filter, yours is a facelift which takes a denso filter.

Drop me a line once you’re car is sorted and we can discuss options.
 
Thanks @F6HAD ! Sorry still not sure about filter. You said genuine, but any reason why not good make like Bosch? Or is that an oxymoron, from a moron? ;) As for later, will deffo call if car is still viable.
 
Given many of the common issues on these engines are often related to fuel pressure, I’ve always advised to stick to an oem filter. I know a lot of members have good results with a quality aftermarket item so you could go with whatever you like really.
 
@F6HAD oh Lordy! OK, fuel filter off without too much problem, just waiting for correct Honda OEM part to come. Fuel Pressure Release valve a whole different story! I was expecting a fight, but it is showing early signs of rounding off (see picture). Only using good tools (well, Halfords advanced, never been a problem before), but valve material seems quite soft? Bit of a naff design tbh - you would think something that needs so much torque would have a better purchase surface! I feel a new (well, breakers) fuel rail coming on. May fit new filters and see if that fixes issue before I try and go further unless you have any more thoughts?
 
Get an impact driver on it to break the thread first before you round it off. Otherwise yes a complete rail from a known working car.
 
Update - replaced fuel and air filters with genuine Honda OEM parts. Cleared codes and went for a drive. Started first time and no apparent issues. Then after about 15-20 minutes, with engine warm, engine cut out again. Was only doing 20-25 mph going round corner. Had OBD tool with me, so had a look at codes. Now reporting something completely different -

Р0103
Control unit:12
Status: Confirmed
Mass air flow (MAF) sensor/volume air flow (VAF) sensor - high input
Mass Airflow (MAF) Sensor Circuit High Voltage

Thought this might be a secondary error rather than actual fault. Left engine to cool for 15-20 minutes, and it started immediately and I managed to get back home. Checked the error codes again, and also reporting a different code, with no sign of the P0103. Now reporting -

P0335
Control unit:12
Status: Confirmed
Crankshaft position (CKP) sensor - circuit malfunction
Crankshaft Position (CKP) Sensor Circuit No Signal

which is one of the codes I had before. So, either there may be a CKP sensor issue, or @F6HAD do you think still likely these are codes secondary to main issue, which is faulty fuel pressure relief valve? I know you have already said you think it is this, but does this update change anything? If not, then a new FPR it is! I don’t have an impact driver, but do have a nice long breaker bar. If you think that will put too much angular force on the old valve, then I guess I’ll have to get an impact driver too! Will remove PS pump to get good access. Can you recommend a good source of relieve valve? I saw you mention in a thread here about there being some cheap ones available these days, but I’m guessing cheap can mean nasty. Supposedly there are some Bosch ones on eBay for around £33.

TIA
 
You must have disconnected the MAF sensor when doing the air filter, that’s what has caused that one. My original suggestion stands, change your FPR.
 
@F6HAD absolutely right, I removed the air box completely to simplify things, so the MAF sensor was disconnected. Thought I had cleared the codes before I went for the test drive, but clearly not. I’ll order a new FPR. Incidentally, no sign of any hesitation yesterday when I broke down, like I had before. Just an immediate engine shutdown and the CE light.

On an OBD reader, is there a specific reading/sensor I can look at to check the FPR performance? If so, what sort of figure should it read, and what sort of figure will trigger the engine shutdown?

Thanks again so much for all the help!
 
Another update - actually got old valve off without too much bother. Removed power steering pump (needs a new O ring anyway) easily by removing two bolts. Used a breaker bar and 6 point 17mm socket and just progressively leant into the top of the breaker bar whilst holding the socket square on the valve body. Seems like nothing is happening, then all of a sudden I felt it give with an audible ’snap’. (If you have a shallow socket and breaker bar, you might get away with just removing the top bolt from the power steering pump and rotating it to the left. This will make re-***embly much easier, as you may not need to remove the two power steering pump hoses or serpentine belt around the pump’s pulley.)

As soon as the valve has given up its grip, easy to remove by hand. I had a rag ready all around the end of the rail and was able to soak up the diesel that seeped out. Fortunately, there was not too much residual fuel pressure, perhaps another indication that the valve is faulty? Engine had not been running since I got back after my last breakdown over 18 hours previously, but under normal circumstances, I would have expected a much more forceful escape of fuel from the valve socket.

So now just waiting for the new valve…

Hoping I will be able to get power steering pump back on in the reverse way I removed it, or I will need to find a pry bar to carefully move the tensioner, or find a very long 14mm spanner to get on the tensioner bolt.
 
Update - finally managed to get hold of and fit new FPR. Cleared codes. Initial signs all good - no leaks, OBD reading what I ***ume are healthy readings with engine idle pressures of around 4400psi (aircon switched off), and ignition at about 8250psi. Went for an almost identical test drive to last time it broke down after replacing fuel and air filters, and it broke down almost at exactly the same place! Now showing OBD codes again of P0335 - crankshaft position sensor, circuit malfunction/no signal.

So, anyone got any ideas? Should I now just ***ume it is the crankshaft position sensor per the OBD codes? @F6HAD ?

Thanks in (frustrated) advance! :)
 
When you say it broke down, it cut out while driving or it wouldn’t start after you switched the engine off?
 
@F6HAD it cut out whilst driving, and would not start immediately. As before, have to wait around 20 minutes before it will start again. Once restarted, there was a moment on way home when it seemed to hesitate again briefly, which was the original problem. I had the OBD scanner running and managed to grab a screen shot as attached.
 

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More info - found that the OBD reader I have (Car Scanner) has a freeze frame option for when a DTC code comes up - see below.

Decided to risk a trip to work in the car on the basis that so far the fault is fairly predictable in outcome. Left early to allow me time to wait the 15-20 minutes required for engine to cool if I stalled again. Turned off air con to reduce any load, and stuck to back roads in case I needed to dive over to the kerb. Took it nice and easy all the way, never above 2000rpm or 50mph. Short story, I made it OK, only about a 22 minute drive. But clearly this is not sustainable.

Couple of other things worth mentioning, just in case:
1) Engine cover still off - in order to check for leaks etc.
2) Noticed that coolant level is very low, possibly little or nothing in the expansion tank. Ahem. Ok, need to, and will fix that pronto. Could this be related? Issue does seem to be temperature related somehow, even if not directly. Just a thought.

TIA.
 

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When it cut out was there any other symptom? Was it a sudden cut off or did it start hesitating then losing boost/power and then eventually cut off? A sudden cut off is likely a loss of crank position signal cutting the fuelling.. a slower loss of power could be egr, boost or fuelling.
 
Hi @F6HAD. It’s a little difficult to tell to be honest because of road noise etc. It seems like a sudden loss of power, like the ignition was turned off, at which point the CE light and message comes up, and maybe a couple of other lights you would get with a stall. But there might be some residual engine power, because if you try and throttle, there may be a hesitant flicker on the rev counter? When I first started having problems, it was just a momentary hesitation, like the ignition cut out very briefly - less than half a second? - but then would carry on as normal. I got usually one, maybe two of those in a driving session. The complete engine cut out followed later, and now I don’t seem to get the hesitations much - though I did last night on way to work, fortunately without the total cut out. It seems that the total cut out is a progression or worsening of the hesitation, which will now normally happen before a hesitation has a chance to occur. So, it’s not like a decaying loss of power, but rather a dramatic loss which is either total, or with a ‘dying gasp’, if that makes sense (like a rapid fuel starvation).
 
Risked another trip to work, but this time, although doing same as yesterday, engine quit abruptly about 2 miles from work. Managed to catch a screenshot of the Car Scanner display. First (timed 20.29) shows when the engine quit. Tried to throttle, but it had completely died. CE light and message came on, shortly after followed by usual stall lights (battery and oil?). Second screenshot (timed 20.30) shows results of trying to crank engine. Seems to show rail pressure drops rapidly after initial spike. Don’t know if this is normal - presumably not. But on that basis, checked primer bulb, and it was soft. Don’t know if that says anything.

As primer had been pumped, tried starting again (screenshot 3, timed 20.41). Engine fired very briefly, but didn’t catch, and second attempt to crank resulted in nothing. No new apparent DTCs.

Just extra info in case this helps.

TIA
 

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Hi there, one of the guys in this forum (i can not find the thread anywhere) had similar issues, and he went straight to changing the crankshaft position sensor and fixed the problem. It is not common (i think) for those sensors to fail (correct me if i'm wrong).
 
Based on that it does sound like it’s losing crank signal which will cause the ecu to kill fuelling. Try changing the sensor next, and ensure you clean the sensor port, replace the o ring or gasket and make sure it’s seated correctly so it’s getting a clear rotation signal.
 
treboRRRR said:
Hi there, one of the guys in this forum (i can not find the thread anywhere) had similar issues, and he went straight to changing the crankshaft position sensor and fixed the problem. It is not common (i think) for those sensors to fail (correct me if i'm wrong).
Click to expand...
Many thanks for the reply. I am coming to a similar conclusion, and think that is the next logical step. Will try and report back.

Thanks again.
 
F6HAD said:
Based on that it does sound like it’s losing crank signal which will cause the ecu to kill fuelling. Try changing the sensor next, and ensure you clean the sensor port, replace the o ring or gasket and make sure it’s seated correctly so it’s getting a clear rotation signal.
Click to expand...
Thanks @F6HAD . Seems like my next job. Now just got to find a good part.

Another thought I had was maybe fuel pump, or possibly the fuel rail pressure sensor? But that is based on my total lack of automotive expertise! . My logic was that as you can see from the screenshots (they forum appears to have reversed the order I described them in by the way, so image 1 is actually image 3 etc), when cranking after a cut out, fuel pressure seems to peak briefly before falling away very rapidly whilst still cranking. However, I can see your explanation too, in that the ECU is preventing fuel injection into the rail if it can’t see the crank position?

Points noted on the fitting, thanks. If this was your car, and fitting a new crank position sensor seemed to fix the issue, would you consider any further diagnostics? Bit of a trick question really as you have all the expertise, but whilst I don’t want to spend unnecessary money, would be foolish to ***ume everything is all OK if the stalling issue goes. Having seen some threads on here and videos relating to EGR horrors, I suspect mine is not pretty! I love the car, had Hondas for over 25 years (this Accord for over 16 years and 220,000 miles) but realistically am now looking for a late Civic Tourer to replace this car, even though they are at least six years old. However, would be ULEZ compliant, and if looked after, would hopefully give me another 10 years of Honda tourer!
 
I would say get the car running properly and then one thing at a time.
 
Hello AmboMan, if you're planning on diagnosing this sensor issue on your own, I think you'll find the procedure from the ESM useful: https://mega.nz/file/BtU0jRSR#r8WNJuh2FctHlfpG7UNZaD6CeCUphM0RiLwBWgpgJLw

In order to get access to the CKP sensor, the ESM says to remove the fan shroud and the compressor without disconnecting the A/C lines. While you're there, check the wiring and the connector for damage or corrosion, as it did throw that P0339 code at one point. The single bolt that holds the sensor on requires 12Nm. The 4 bolts holding the compressor on the bracket require 22Nm. The part number of the sensor is 37500-RBD-E01. If you need more information, do let me know.
 
ExpandWeiner said:
Hello AmboMan, if you're planning on diagnosing this sensor issue on your own, I think you'll find the procedure from the ESM useful: https://mega.nz/file/BtU0jRSR#r8WNJuh2FctHlfpG7UNZaD6CeCUphM0RiLwBWgpgJLw

In order to get access to the CKP sensor, the ESM says to remove the fan shroud and the compressor without disconnecting the A/C lines. While you're there, check the wiring and the connector for damage or corrosion, as it did throw that P0339 code at one point. The single bolt that holds the sensor on requires 12Nm. The 4 bolts holding the compressor on the bracket require 22Nm. The part number of the sensor is 37500-RBD-E01. If you need more information, do let me know.
Click to expand...

Many thanks for the reply @ExpandWeiner. I have already ordered a replacement part (OEM used, but apparently known good) which should arrive by tomorrow/Saturday. Apparently I should be able to access this part on the front left (as you look at car) bottom of engine block, by jacking the front of the car up and removing the undertray?

I’ve only seen the P0339 code once, but will check as much as I can whilst I am there. Now all I get is pending and confirmed P0335.

Thanks again.
 
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