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stellamon

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I'm kinda worried about the future. Apparently we all gonna be using electric cars by 2040 for sure but could be 2032 maybe if the deadline is bought forward.
That sounds a long ways off but the way time flys by it will soon be upon us.
Not sure how we all gonna get to be persuaded to relinquish our fossil fuel friendly beasts but I do agree it will all be for the best as far as the planet is concerned.
I hope the powers that be will offer some persuasive deals.

What worries me is how I'm going to afford one of these new electronical wizards because if it all starts on a certain date, where is the second hand market coming from?
Millions of people will be priced out of the new car market making it many more times great for the environment.

I shouldn't be that worried cos I'm nearly 56 now so may not even be around by the time all this crap goes on but my kids will have to cope with it all, I don't envy them.
 

Stevearcade

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Electric cars will become cheaper as time goes by. The car industry has a 100 years of infrastructure history that's going to be overhauled in the next few decades. The knock on effect is that as electric cars become more commonplace, the production cost will come down and so too will the second hand value. There's still 20+ years in my opinion before common folk like myself will move over to electric cars, by which time I think they'll be equivalent price to picking up a second hand petrol/diesel. And by then the quick charge and long range capability will be in place.

I wouldn't worry about it for at least a decade yet
 

Richard B

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I'm with stellamon on this. I don't have the income for a new car, so am waiting for the trickle down effect to afford new technologies. But electrics are a tiny percentage of the new car market here, so it's far more likely in 20 years time I'll be driving a 2020 combustion engine. Either that or I won't have a personal car at all and instead be part of a self driving electric car share program.

Self driving vehicles will make car share schemes a lot easier, as they will be able to deliver themselves instead of you having to walk to a pick up point. And then you don't even have to drive. Or you won't be allowed to. When everything becomes self driving, insurance rates for driving yourself will rise, as insurance companies are very good at interpreting statistics, and humans kind of bad at driving..

Tesla may have been a disruptor in speeding up the transition to electric infrastructure, but they have done nothing to make electrics affordable. But focusing on that makes the naive ***umption that the practice of driving and owning a car, and government's opinion of transport solutions will remain what it is today. That isn't what our future looks like. Self driving tech will be a much greater disruptor, and it more than anything will determine what and how you drive in 20 to 50 years time.

Just think about it. If everything is self driving, and there is some sort of common communication standard, we probably won't need traffic lights. Vehicles will just zip past each other like the intersection isn't there. For personalised transport inside cities that will make so much sense.

Perhaps 20 years is an optimistic timeline, but the barrier isn't technology. In 50 years, not many young people will need a drivers licence.

Have a look at this short video for context.
 

Dexter101

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Its a really interesting area, as really self driving cars for me are an all or nothing kind of thing. Which if all, then what happens to the car enthusiast?

I am waiting for the VW camper van reboot (electric) but don't believe that is going to be self driving so then is there any point?

There are some great people modding cars, making them electric. Mighty Car Mods did a couple of episodes on it years ago and looked crazy.

https://youtu.be/PZuShe0gefY
 

stellamon

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Only my opinion but I detest the thought of self driving cars, kinda like going on the train, so much duller than driving. Just sit there and wait to arrive.
I've always loved driving and being in control of my speed and destiny and occasionally being naughty.
The whole of life seems to be getting more and more confined and controlled and this will be the ultimate in the restriction of our freedom.
For those that find driving stressful it will be a massive help I'm sure but not for me!
 

Stevearcade

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Indeed, but I do believe we're the minority. A bug enough minority that we will politically be able to hold off autonomy, but I think it will happen eventually, probably decades away yet.
 

Channel Hopper

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The profit margin of existing piston technology (how much have VW stashed away to cover the emissions scandal ?) means manufacturers can always drop the price on a whim.

There is already a drive (sic) to ensure electric alternatives will be on the forecourts at the same price as the petrol/diesels within the decade so only the trend setters are paying through the nose.

What is required though is the emergence of a third alternative, one that doesnt rely on the delivery of the fuels, fossil or electric as it is currently being rolled out. A threat if you will that gives the public something to escape from the rat-race, that isn't tied in some way to the multinationals.
 

Richard B

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Channel Hopper said:
What is required though is the emergence of a third alternative, one that doesnt rely on the delivery of the fuels, fossil or electric as it is currently being rolled out.
I've been toying with the idea of buying an old truck and putting a wood gasifier on the back.
 

Channel Hopper

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Honda had a demo vehicle running a gasifier in the US a decade ago, not sure what happened to it.

I was interested in the process being able to burn stuff other than wood for the carbon rich fuel, including old tyres, using a burner shape that eliminates the need to cut them up, thereby improving the efficiency

Just by coincidence

https://www.instructables.com/id/Convert-your-Honda-Accord-to-run-on-trash/
 

Richard B

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That is super inspiring. I think they could have done more to streamline the package and have it actually fit inside the boot area.

I think I read something about turning waste plastics into diesel oil, but don't have anything at hand to share. ISTR it was a process one could manage at home though.
 

Channel Hopper

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Plastics (at least those found in most household refuse that is considered non-recyclable by the local council) cannot be put through the same process as tyres or wood since it does not break down to provide the carbon compounds for the energy.

Don't forget the bogeyman is the Diesel engine itself, at least in this area thanks to the sham in charge of London. It doesn't matter if you discover a wonder fuel that propels the car around the capital without causing millenials offence, biodiesel and SVO are in the same boat thanks to the ANPR method of taxation.

As for streamlining the gasifier, the external placement of the components is more to do with keeping the process outside the driving compartment, though with a bit of clever welding and paint it shouldn't be difficult to recreate the 'Mr Fusion' reactor look.
 

Richard B

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I re-read some stuff. Making diesel from waste plastics isn't the same process as producing syngas from wood. Diesel can be produced using pyrolysis, in which plastics are heated to extreme temperatures without combustion, creating a hydrocarbon gas that can and distilled into various weight oils. Commercial plants produce 800 Litres of diesel from 1000KG of plastic and sustain the primary reaction vessel by burning the non-distillable waste gasses to fuel the (external) furnace.

There are various descriptions online of people running small scale plants in their backyards, but the temperatures involved and the potential for the setup to turn into an embarrassingly attention grabbing fuel-air explosion make this type of backyard tech the domain of the skilled and the foolhardy.

As for the future of traditional diesel engines in city environments - I don't think it has one. Electric vehicles and ****geneous combustion engines will probably take over, with diesel hanging on for a fair while on the open road
 

Channel Hopper

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The stochiometry of a Diesel engine can be altered using different fuel. though the designs of the modern car have been locked to fossil types delivered at the pump. Biodiesel, at least that you can buy has been refined to mimic the characteristics of the dirty stuff.

Much like the news in the airline industry a decade or so ago, where cabin air quality at altitude was affected by the aviation fuel bypassing engine seals, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if some of the health issues reported, (real ones, not the band wagon asthma martyrs in the press) are the result of additives within the diesel, which are essential for the lubrication in the ridicularly complex high pressure fuel rails out there running at 2000+ bar.

From memory one of the earliest designs was proven to work with normal petrol, and the Vauxhall Combo (Isuzu 1.7 powerplant) that was our company van was driven on almost neat four star for quite a few miles after misfuelling
 

DDA

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The move to electric (battery) only makes sense if you are producing clean electricity, otherwise it is just transferring the pollution to a different location. Materials for producing batteries are also based on using raw materials, lithium, cobalt etc... which are also limited in supply.
I don't think Tesla has ever made a profit, apart from the odd quarter when they want to encourage investors, only Toyota appear to playing the long game of developing hydrogen powered vehicles.
It seems like electric vehicles may only be a further interim power source in automotive history.
 

Richard B

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The Future isn't everyone driving Teslas. The future is everyone driving vehicles that are whatever Tesla and all other manufacturers combined will come up with.

I think chassis based Lithium Ion batteries are a transitional technology. I also think that there will at some stage be an agreement on standard format batteries that take a few seconds to (robotically) slot in and out of vehicles and are shared between models and brands. If every car ran on its own custom fuel we would never have had such a thing as automotive culture.

A system of standard batteries that are remotely charged and easily swapped will remove the need for urban based short trip cars to lug a heavy battery around, and having slow, decentralised chargers everywhere. We already have all the technology necessary to make this run. If a battery swap takes a few seconds at a robotic swap station, people won't mind having a shorter range battery on board, especially when it brings the cost of the car down.

Hydrogen is a tricky fuel. Very small molecule, requiring expensive logistics moving it around.
 

Channel Hopper

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Richard B said:
The Future isn't everyone driving Teslas. The future is everyone driving vehicles that are whatever Tesla and all other manufacturers combined will come up with.

I think chassis based Lithium Ion batteries are a transitional technology. I also think that there will at some stage be an agreement on standard format batteries that take a few seconds to (robotically) slot in and out of vehicles and are shared between models and brands. If every car ran on its own custom fuel we would never have had such a thing as automotive culture.

A system of standard batteries that are remotely charged and easily swapped will remove the need for urban based short trip cars to lug a heavy battery around, and having slow, decentralised chargers everywhere. We already have all the technology necessary to make this run. If a battery swap takes a few seconds at a robotic swap station, people won't mind having a shorter range battery on board, especially when it brings the cost of the car down.

Hydrogen is a tricky fuel. Very small molecule, requiring expensive logistics moving it around.
Hydrogen isn't going to happen, and neither is electric (at least not with batteries as a prime source of the energy.

You have hit it on the head with the comment If every car ran on its own custom fuel we would never have had such a thing as automotive culture though, as the alternatives were always there around the time the bicycle got invented. Pedal power, where each cyclist rides whilst eating completely different food.

The breakaway breakthrough will come with the harvesting of limbs (from whichever donor turns out to be the most efficient, animal/human), and the dual delivery of nutrition and electrical signals that direct them to propel a vehicle with occupant - run/pedal or potentially fly.

The second film in Romaro's Living Dead trio touched upon the harvesting of the complete zombie body, remove most of the head and then get the corpse to carry out menial tasks. The change in laws on organ donation could be the first step to organic automotive technology.
 

stellamon

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Not sure about the zombie stuff but the way brexit is going this electric car **** may never happen :)
 

Richard B

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I think given the way things are going a zombie apocalypse might happen before the Brexit wave form ever collapses into any of its possible realities.
 
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