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Low power at low revs

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olnmfc

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Accord ctdi 55
Hi, have been making little progress with this issue and been trawling the internet for solutions - thought I'd try here!

My 55 plate Accord ctdi (100k) has very little power 1300 - 2500rpm. Beautiful turbo rush above that (perhaps even feels more than 140bhp). Throttle position does make a difference. You can gently accelerate through the flat spot. Flooring the throttle from idle means that it doesnt pick up after 2500rpm as if you gently accelorate through the flat spot/area (and it takes an age to get from 1500 to 2000rpm)! Light throttle upto about 1500rpm feels fairly normal.

Going back to the beginning for a moment - Car was in limp mode and engine management light on. Performance upto 2000rpm was perfect, but didnt rev above that - usually. Occasionally did and reved normally with light off. Took it to garage and they diagnosed egr valve restricted flow. suggested dealer only part at £500. But thought I'd have a go at the egr aerosol cleaner first. Have taken most of the egr ***embly off and sprayed with wd40 and cleaned all gunk off (alot). Sprayed a can of the ege cleaner through the MAF intake and filled the tank with Shell V Power including an injector cleaner (not BF244) mix in the tank. Changed the oil for fully synthetic 10- 40, new oil filter and fuel filter... Result? No, still flat at around 1500rpm, maybe slightly better - however engine management light now off. Sound improved a bit but still quite tappety/rattly.

Ive looked at the DIY EGR clean on this web site (slightly different model), but just wondering if I need to do more cleaning?? The fuel tank has only gone half way through its mix and I may not have got to all the gunk inside the egr passageways. could injectors be blocked or even the pre CAT filter or the CAT itself? Will the V Power/cleaner mix clean those parts out with another tank??

Any pointers gratefully rec'd, Many thanks!
 
You need to ensure your fuel filter has been renewed for a brand new Genuine Honda part from the dealers, and switch that 10w/40 to 0w/30 straight away for a start.
 
Shall we put 10w40 in the swear filter?
 
Just checked - it was actually 5 - 30W. Thats what was recommended and is one of the 4 viscosities approved according to the Honda manual. The filter is oe. Anything else?
 
5w/30 is not so bad but still not good enough. It's not the reason for your problems however. I would check for the smooth operation of your Intake Manifold Runner Control - check the sticky threads in the diesel faults section.
 
olnmfc said:
Hi, have been making little progress with this issue and been trawling the internet for solutions - thought I'd try here!

My 55 plate Accord ctdi (100k) has very little power 1300 - 2500rpm. Beautiful turbo rush above that (perhaps even feels more than 140bhp). Throttle position does make a difference. You can gently accelerate through the flat spot. Flooring the throttle from idle means that it doesnt pick up after 2500rpm as if you gently accelorate through the flat spot/area (and it takes an age to get from 1500 to 2000rpm)! Light throttle upto about 1500rpm feels fairly normal.

Going back to the beginning for a moment - Car was in limp mode and engine management light on. Performance upto 2000rpm was perfect, but didnt rev above that - usually. Occasionally did and reved normally with light off. Took it to garage and they diagnosed egr valve restricted flow. suggested dealer only part at £500. But thought I'd have a go at the egr aerosol cleaner first. Have taken most of the egr ***embly off and sprayed with wd40 and cleaned all gunk off (alot). Sprayed a can of the ege cleaner through the MAF intake and filled the tank with Shell V Power including an injector cleaner (not BF244) mix in the tank. Changed the oil for fully synthetic 10- 40, new oil filter and fuel filter... Result? No, still flat at around 1500rpm, maybe slightly better - however engine management light now off. Sound improved a bit but still quite tappety/rattly.

Ive looked at the DIY EGR clean on this web site (slightly different model), but just wondering if I need to do more cleaning?? The fuel tank has only gone half way through its mix and I may not have got to all the gunk inside the egr passageways. could injectors be blocked or even the pre CAT filter or the CAT itself? Will the V Power/cleaner mix clean those parts out with another tank??

Any pointers gratefully rec'd, Many thanks!
Click to expand...


Welcome along Gordon,

I second Fahad advice,

Confirm, even better replace the fuel filter with genuine one from Honda, there are DIY's on here in the DIY section, then at least you can rule it out, the fuel filter and especially after-market fuel filters can cause all sorts of issues. Also when trying to solve an issue like yours, you really do need to rule out the fuel filter.

When cleaning the EGR Valve did you get out all the gunk from where it attaches to the engine ?

Cleaning the IMRC valve is also extremely advisable, especially if the EGR was pretty gunked up.

When cleaning the MAF sensor, did you actually remove the MAF sensor from the air filter housing, if not then you probably have not been able to clean it properly, there are DIY's to do this and cleaning the MAP sensor.

Below is a link to a previous newbie post, well worth a read as it highlights many of the issues and contains some links to the DIY threads etc

http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/1853-brand-new-newbie/page__p__22053__fromsearch__1#entry22053
 
Please be mega careful when cleaning the MAF sensor and do not under any circumstances touch the metal elements as they damage stupidly easy. And MAF sensors are not cheap to replace.
 
Hi - and thanks for replies so far...

To pick on a few points. I did see the DIYs here and didnt remove the MAF so wont have damaged it but did spray 2 cans of EGR cleaner through there so it must be clean by now! also did remove the IMRC ***embly to thoroughly clean around there...

I'm suspicious of changing things for the sake of it and the garages are renoun for doing this. They'd have had me buy a new EGR at £500 + VAT and fitting by now and I doubt I'd be any further forward as its been thoroughly cleaned and still the same... As for the fuel filter, well it was driving normally before upto 2000rpm in limp mode (or totally normally when engine management light was off) so after changing it no difference. Its a FRAM filter and the one on before looked old and was a Bosch (longer). Also diagnosis was EGR restricted flow - nothing to do with fuel filter. i changed it as was doing a service anyway and its sensible thing to change if it looks like its not been changed for a while. No need (for me) for the DIY here (but thanks anyway!) - its pretty easy to do, took me 30 mins - just make sure to get the connections the right way round!

Intruiged by the Intake manifold Runner Control comment - thats a new one, so will look at the sticky...

ah well its a day in the sun under my bonnet again!

p.s Ive seen EGR valves on ebay for £35.... but they seem to be different bits of just parts of the overall ***embly. The DIY on this site is not the same as on my 55 plate.
 
Oh one other comment - Spoke to previous owner (I bought at auction recently) {who said he traded it in for a new Accord} who said was running perfectly, no reason to doubt that. But fuel was VERY low on purchase so auction may have let the fuel run out/almost dry, which would kick it into limp mode to protect the pump. I had a similar problem with an Audi Allroad a year or so back - it was the pump but was ok as long as you kept the fuel level above 1/4. Ive filled the tank up but no difference
 
FRAM filter is bad for this car - seen it before.

Take the advice if you want, it's your choice. Nobody wants to throw parts at their car, but if you have an issue, it's time to get your wallet out sometimes.

Get rid of that FRAM filter for a genuine Honda Bosch item from the dealers, I'm sick of telling people this - they always think they know better because it's 'only a fuel filter' afterall.
 
If it was my car I would do the following ;-

Remove EGR and clean properly - those supposed easy solution cans are not worth using IME
Whilst you have the EGR off give the IMRC a clean as well
Take off both MAP and MAF sensors and clean them - for the MAP you say that the spray would have done this but if you take it off you will see its well encased and some spray wont have cleaned it properly.
Change FF for a genuine Honda part - cant remember how many times we have had members on here who have had the limp home problems with all sorts of wonderful codes being listed. Those members all say but I changed the FF for a blue print part.........we say change it for genuine honda............week later its all sorted.

Whether you take the advice is upto you but your gonna have to put your hand in your pocket either way.
 
Ive had the egr/***emblies off and cleaned already. Looks like its a honda filter then, but I doubt that'll fix it - either way I'll post the results.... Had a look at the sticky post re small filter on the egr solenoid but disconnecting the connection doesnt make any difference. Will let you all know anyway cant beleive this exact problem is the first time Accord owners have come accross this
 
You seem to know what you are talking about and know your way around the engine, so why not invest in some OBD diagnostics? If you already have a laptop outlay will be minimal. Your symptoms seem quite severe so chances are you'd be able see what was going wrong. With something like Palmer Performance Scan XL, you can log the relevant sensors, EGR error, fuel rail pressure, boost, MAP and MAF data, and do some more diagnosing yourself.

Buy an ELM327 adapter from eBay (£10), then buy PCMScan software only (approx £60), and update it for free to ScanXL (special offer at the moment), and you'll have the best bit of diagnostic kit for the price at your own finger tips. It will pay for itself anyway given what you can do with the knowledge it will give you.
 
If it has not got a GENUINE Honda fuel filter on the car PUT ONE ON IT.

I am the last person to use OEM parts if i can help it but i have seen so many threads on here about poor running ICTDI's with EML lights caused by after market fuel filters it is insane not to use Honda's.

I will put money on it that it is your fuel filter.
 
SHOCK UPDATE!!!!

You know those two little apparently insignificant cylindrical black filters.... ones attached to the IMRC Denso sensor at the front of the engine, beside the EGR and another one at the back - connected via a pipe................... Well............. they detach on my model from the main body of the sensor so I gave them a good soaking in WD40 and guess what. Car is running much better - not quite fully fixed but its clearly those that are faulty and nothing to do with the fuel filter - I might even put my old Bosch one back on to pacify you purists lol!

It was the sticky related thread that put me onto that, so will price up new IMRC filter (from Honda! lol)
 
olnmfc said:
SHOCK UPDATE!!!!

You know those two little apparently insignificant cylindrical black filters.... ones attached to the IMRC Denso sensor at the front of the engine, beside the EGR and another one at the back - connected via a pipe................... Well............. they detach on my model from the main body of the sensor so I gave them a good soaking in WD40 and guess what. Car is running much better - not quite fully fixed but its clearly those that are faulty and nothing to do with the fuel filter - I might even put my old Bosch one back on to pacify you purists lol!

It was the sticky related thread that put me onto that, so will price up new IMRC filter (from Honda! lol)
Click to expand...


Sorry Gordon,

I'm not with you when you say the car is "running much better - not quite fixed" In what way is the car running better?

In respect of the filters that you have soaked in WD40, did you by any chance do one, test drive the car to see if there was any improvement and then do the other, the reason I ask this as what you are referring to are filters to solenoid valves. In respect of the IMRC solenoid, I did indeed test the old solenoid with a new filter to prove or disprove whether it was just a simple issue of replacing the filter. I had both parts either way but out of interest I did this as I have an inquisitive mind. Anyhow it proved to be the solenoid certainly in my case.
Equally however the generally fault reported with the IMRC solenoid is hesitation rather than the sluggishness that you mentioned at the beginning of the thread.
I think the valve at the back you are referring to is the EVR valve which connects a vac pipe to the turbo actuator at the back of the engine which could cause some of your issues.

I note that you referred to the DIY on cleaning the EGR and stated that the parts shown were not the same as yours. Given your opening, I would imagine yours to be a pre-faclift model and should have the same parts as the threads by Gator or Dangermouse, in which case your EGR valve has an electrical connector at the top and is located to the side of the engine. If this is not correct then you have a facelift model with 6 gears etc and the EGR has a vac pipe going to it from another EVR valve and you would need to look at the cleaning EGR for facelift models thread.

With reference to the purist view on fuel filters, it is from the collective experience of many members of the forum and many initial faults reported by newbies joining the forum etc that have quite correctly formed this opinion. All I will say is if your happy with the fram stick with it, maybe it will work for you, as of yet we haven't seen an after-market filter work for long but who's to say it won't for you.

Please also appreciate that with the i-ctdi engine, which is a very refined piece of mechanical workmanship, when diagnosing faults you have to ensure that the simple things that can throw you on a wild goose chase are done first.

Here is another link just to illustrate the differences between after-market and genuine fuel filter, you may not be a believer, but all the same please spare the time. The guy involved, was possibly our eldest member and had the after market filter for about 2k.

Ambrose

Hope you get your car sorted
 
olnmfc said:
SHOCK UPDATE!!!!

You know those two little apparently insignificant cylindrical black filters.... ones attached to the IMRC Denso sensor at the front of the engine, beside the EGR and another one at the back - connected via a pipe................... Well............. they detach on my model from the main body of the sensor so I gave them a good soaking in WD40 and guess what. Car is running much better - not quite fully fixed but its clearly those that are faulty and nothing to do with the fuel filter - I might even put my old Bosch one back on to pacify you purists lol!

It was the sticky related thread that put me onto that, so will price up new IMRC filter (from Honda! lol)
Click to expand...


mate, we are not being snobs when advising you to use a genuine fuel filter. it is a quite unbelievably common occurrence for them to cause issues with the diesel that seem quite unrelated. feel free to do a search on the forum and see for yourself the amount of diesel fault threads that have been cured by a Honda filter. it seems to be only the fuel filter that causes problems when using after market copys. air filter etc you generally don't get problems.
by all means use after market brake pads and discs etc but don't use after market fuel filters. its a false economy.
 
It is good on creaky doors mind....
 
am i right that wd 40 used to be used as a fuel in planes or rockets.
 
brett said:
am i right that wd 40 used to be used as a fuel in planes or rockets.
Click to expand...
No, it isn't and never has been a fuel! WD40 is primarily a water repellent and corrosion inhibitor, though as we all know it's invaluable for 1000s of uses, though I think it often gets used where it does more harm than good.
 
no problem guys iv been given bad info from friends of mine im wandering if it was Apr fools day lol
 
Just to give you girls a laugh -

Before I put my old Bosch fuel filter back on i gave it a good spraying of WD40 inside from all directions, out it back on the car but no difference. Hope to get a filter tomorrow from Honda if they have them in stock (should do with the amount of apparent problems). how much would I expect to pay? Only ask as I saw a (new) Honda one on ebay for £29 so may buy that and save myself a journey.

p.s another symptom I hadnt mentioned is that the turbo whine/whoosh at low revs only very occasionally happens now. Is this the variable vanes not spooling up? As mentioned no problems with the more than ample power from 2500 rpm all the way to the red line!

Cheers
 
Missed a bit - "not spooling up" - " due to the evr valve defective???
 
& is there some way to test this without shelling out £130 (esp as Honda wont take back if it makes no difference. As mentioned EML not on anymore - Ta!
 
Disconnected the Frequency Solenoid and low and behold problem solved - runs perfect ( with EML on)... ho hum...
 
olnmfc said:
Just to give you girls a laugh -

Before I put my old Bosch fuel filter back on i gave it a good spraying of WD40 inside from all directions, out it back on the car but no difference. Hope to get a filter tomorrow from Honda if they have them in stock (should do with the amount of apparent problems). how much would I expect to pay? Only ask as I saw a (new) Honda one on ebay for £29 so may buy that and save myself a journey.

p.s another symptom I hadnt mentioned is that the turbo whine/whoosh at low revs only very occasionally happens now. Is this the variable vanes not spooling up? As mentioned no problems with the more than ample power from 2500 rpm all the way to the red line!

Cheers
Click to expand...

:lol:
Now why did I have that feeling you were going to put WD40 in a fuel filter and shock horror, no difference, finally a break through WD 40 cannot fix fuel filters! well at least you now know whatever you do you need to change the fuel filter as it is now contaminated with WD40!, which I must say is a first.

Just a thought have you checked that all Vac lines are tight and not leaking, also have you confirmed you exhaust manifold is not leaking

olnmfc said:
& is there some way to test this without shelling out £130 (esp as Honda wont take back if it makes no difference. As mentioned EML not on anymore - Ta!
Click to expand...

Just confirming is the part you are referring to at the front or back of the engine. The one at the front is the IMRC solenoid, mentioned in the slight missing, hesitation excessive smoking etc thread and these are around £130, the general way to test these is unplug them, which puts on the mil light but not limp mode, however it is more to see if any jerkiness still exists. The EVR is what I suspect you are referring to, which is at the back of the engine however I suspect these are a little bit more than £130. perhaps source one from a breakers.

In respect of the little black filter, probably best to take the time to read the whole of the slightly missing, hesitation excessive smoking thread, in there you will discover that the facelift has a separate filter to the IMRC solenoid that can be purchased separately, the part number is mention in the thread. You will find that this may fit onto the EVR filter post, however as mentioned earlier if it is the solenoid that is causing the issue then it tends to be the solenoid rather than the filter, which incidental I suspect is a way of releasing vacuum whilst protecting the solenoid from dirt.
 
The front - frequency solenoid - £115 and no wont be changing the fuel filter. As I suspected, nothing to do with the fault. Thw WD made no difference to the running of the car afterwards, but anyway Ive still got my FRAM filter if necessary - ohh I can just see you all falling off your stools... lol
 
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