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Power loss/hesitation AND now starting problems

R

rmfealy

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Location
Kildare, Ireland
Car
2004 2.2 ctdi
Hi All

Ok...I've worked up the courage to post another new topic on power loss/hesitation issues. I'm keenly aware that this topic has been covered in a multiple of places on this forum but having reviewed previous posts in so far as I can, mine seems at least to be a variant of previously described issues. Hopefully that fact will prevent me from getting in too much trouble!

This is a two parter:

Part 1 Starting problems
For about 2 months when starting the car there is a longer delay than usual before the engine fires. Unlike normally flat battery symptoms, the ignition/battery combination seems to turn away fine with no obvious struggle. Its just it takes a few seconds with ignition turned for engine to start. Night before last it finally didn't start, leaving me stranded. The mechanic sent by insurance company put an auxilliary battery on it and it started fine. He suggested replacing battery on the basis that there "...may be power in battery but just not sufficient to start it...".

I took the car to Honda dealer yesterday evening, and it didn't start in the courtyard. They pushed it into workshop and two hours later came back with following diagnosis...
they smelt petrol from fuel tank and recommended that the tank be drained and fuel lines cleaned
they said on switching egine off that there was an immediate pressure drop "across the rail" from 30 (kilo pascals?) to almost 0. They felt that this pressure shouldn't drop so fast and could be indicative of injector problems. Solution....car to be dropped in for 1-2 days with injectors to be taken out and sent to Bosch for testing
I rang them just now and confirmed that they got no fault codes yesterday

...which leaves me somewhat confused. I did put a half tank of petrol in about 12 months ago but copped it quick enough and didn't start the engine. It was put on the back of a truck and brought to a Honda dealer for daring of the tank and cleaning of the lines.

Some facts:
  • UK Import, bought in 2007 with 34,000 on the clock
  • 117,000 miles now up
  • Full Honda service history both before and after I bought it
  • Always top up with 0w 30
  • Serviced in October at 109,000 miles where I requested they change the fuel filter. (Invoice records source for filter as "Honda")
  • BG244 added in early November

Part 2 power/hesitation issue
This is what I was originally going to ask about until starting problems started....

For about 2 years I've been experiencing on and off what I can only describe as power loss at almost exactly 2k revs. I know this has been reported in other posts but I think is different in that its never ***ociated with lights on the dash. Its 99% of the time in the morning soon after starting (though it has happened very rarely in evening when leaving work). I push the accelerator and it goes to 2k revs and then almost flatlines. It literally crawls up to approx 3,500 revs and then bang...turbo kicks in and we're away. While the problem is present I have to VERY careful at junctions to keep the car revved as if I don't I could pull out and have the power loss occur as a car/truck/bus comes screaming on me from behind.

I say when the problem is present occurs coz its variable. It lasts for maybe a few weeks than stops. I had it a couple of weeks ago...now currently no sign of. But from experience it will come back. Its probably my imagination but I thought the problem frequency seemed to be reduced during the cold snap here but that could have been a combination of wishful thinking and not wearing a hat....


I'm sorry about the nature/length of this post but to be perfectly honest this forum is becoming my last resort for a hope of any decent help.

Thanks in advance
 
This is very odd and you said Honda have no fault codes.The 2 things do sound similar to previous threads but with more drastic action.I cant see the petrol thing after 1 year being an issue but i might be wrong.
It almost sounds like your car is going into limp mode when you get to 2k revs.When this happens does any light flash like the VSA
 
brett said:
This is very odd and you said Honda have no fault codes.The 2 things do sound similar to previous threads but with more drastic action.I cant see the petrol thing after 1 year being an issue but i might be wrong.
It almost sounds like your car is going into limp mode when you get to 2k revs.When this happens does any light flash like the VSA
Click to expand...

Absolutely nothing. No lights at all. Just accelerator to floor, slow crawl up the revs to 3,500 (approx) and then off she goes. This will be repeated at all junctions unti l get to the motorway and cruising speed.
 
Have a good look at some threads in the link there are lots with low pressure issues if you haven't had a good look.

http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/forum/23-diesel-faults/
 
brett said:
Have a good look at some threads in the link there are lots with low pressure issues if you haven't had a good look.

http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/forum/23-diesel-faults/
Click to expand...

Thanks Brett. I know it might look like I'm posting witout looking but thats what I meant by "...where angels fear to thread" comment up top!

I think I've read most if not all posts on lack of power, hesitation, genuine Honda fuel filter etc but all reports appear to be ***ociated with either lights on dash or fault codes which at least is something to go on. Mine has neither.....
 
I suppose if the car had been misfueled in a past life the injectors could have been damaged?

But that doesn't explain the flat lining followed by Turbo at 3.5K... Perhaps Faddy can comment on that being related to a map problem? Or something else?
 
Dan Robinson said:
I suppose if the car had been misfueled in a past life the injectors could have been damaged?

But that doesn't explain the flat lining followed by Turbo at 3.5K... Perhaps Faddy can comment on that being related to a map problem? Or something else?
Click to expand...
Im thinking along the same lines Dan i think Faddy is the best in this department :)
 
Sounds like the petrol contamination has damaged the seals in your high pressure fuel pump causing the issues you're experiencing.

It is a guess though...
 
F6HAD said:
Sounds like the petrol contamination has damaged the seals in your high pressure fuel pump causing the issues you're experiencing.

It is a guess though...
Click to expand...

Thanks to all for input so far. Not sounding too encouraging methinks.

Fahad....would the fact that I didn't start the car after misfueling still lead to potential damage to fuel pump?
 
Depends on a lot of ifs and bits fella, and Fuel quality over there isn't all that unless I am mistaken.

I drove from Dublin to Derry recently and the scenic way into the bargain. I saw naff all vpower or ultimate garages. Most price boards were written on the back if crisp boxes. Think I had to resort to "emo" diesel which would have different connotations if you were an MCR fan :lol:
 
Dan Robinson said:
Depends on a lot of ifs and bits fella, and Fuel quality over there isn't all that unless I am mistaken.

I drove from Dublin to Derry recently and the scenic way into the bargain. I saw naff all vpower or ultimate garages. Most price boards were written on the back if crisp boxes. Think I had to resort to "emo" diesel which would have different connotations if you were an MCR fan :lol:
Click to expand...

...crisp boxes are all our garages have left. They had to sell off their fancy signs and other infrastructure to help in paying off the IMF/EU loan....!!

I have often wondered when reading this forum and others about the reference to "better" fuel grades and why we don't seem to have them available here.
 
Hey. This is gonna sound completely off topic, but a mate of mine had the whole hesitation problem with his volvo, and what they did was check all the earth wire points on the car, (prob. said tat wrong, forgive me.) and they removed all the screws that obviously grounded the car electrically and made sure there was no paint or rust or dirt around the area where the ground wires are connected to the car. They then coverd them in copperslip grease, to stop moisture from getting to it, and that seemed to have solved the problem.

I know it's a long shot but worth a try, if youve tried everything the guys on here with more knowledge have suggested.

Good luck buddy.




(Oh by the way if this does not make sence it's probably because I'm listening to DUBSTEP as loud as the law allows. lol.)
 
:lol: nice :lol:
 
Just wondering if this is still a fuel filter issue. I know the op requested it at october service and it's on the invoice, but was it really changed.
 
It may be that you have two seperate faults, but would suggest that you could do some initial diagnostics yourself given no fault codes are being registered.

Fuel pressure loss in rail when switched off needs to be investigated first, sounds like something is draining back to tank, check pipes and add vaseline to connections.

Can you connect a pressure guage to fuel rail and run this into the cabin to monitor whilst on the road, if low pressure occurs when you experience your hesitation/non start you have a clue where to start.

Other thought is to connect a boost guage to the turbo and check to see how this is operating and where it is cutting in.
Experienced similar issue once on a VW where the operating linkage/variable vanes in the turbo was coked up, sent the unit to a turbo company to be cleaned ultrasonically and it fixed issue.
 
RMF said:
Hi All

Ok...I've worked up the courage to post another new topic on power loss/hesitation issues. I'm keenly aware that this topic has been covered in a multiple of places on this forum but having reviewed previous posts in so far as I can, mine seems at least to be a variant of previously described issues. Hopefully that fact will prevent me from getting in too much trouble!

This is a two parter:

Part 1 Starting problems
For about 2 months when starting the car there is a longer delay than usual before the engine fires. Unlike normally flat battery symptoms, the ignition/battery combination seems to turn away fine with no obvious struggle. Its just it takes a few seconds with ignition turned for engine to start. Night before last it finally didn't start, leaving me stranded. The mechanic sent by insurance company put an auxilliary battery on it and it started fine. He suggested replacing battery on the basis that there "...may be power in battery but just not sufficient to start it...".

I took the car to Honda dealer yesterday evening, and it didn't start in the courtyard. They pushed it into workshop and two hours later came back with following diagnosis...
they smelt petrol from fuel tank and recommended that the tank be drained and fuel lines cleaned
they said on switching egine off that there was an immediate pressure drop "across the rail" from 30 (kilo pascals?) to almost 0. They felt that this pressure shouldn't drop so fast and could be indicative of injector problems. Solution....car to be dropped in for 1-2 days with injectors to be taken out and sent to Bosch for testing
I rang them just now and confirmed that they got no fault codes yesterday

...which leaves me somewhat confused. I did put a half tank of petrol in about 12 months ago but copped it quick enough and didn't start the engine. It was put on the back of a truck and brought to a Honda dealer for daring of the tank and cleaning of the lines.

Some facts:
  • UK Import, bought in 2007 with 34,000 on the clock
  • 117,000 miles now up
  • Full Honda service history both before and after I bought it
  • Always top up with 0w 30
  • Serviced in October at 109,000 miles where I requested they change the fuel filter. (Invoice records source for filter as "Honda")
  • BG244 added in early November

Part 2 power/hesitation issue
This is what I was originally going to ask about until starting problems started....

For about 2 years I've been experiencing on and off what I can only describe as power loss at almost exactly 2k revs. I know this has been reported in other posts but I think is different in that its never ***ociated with lights on the dash. Its 99% of the time in the morning soon after starting (though it has happened very rarely in evening when leaving work). I push the accelerator and it goes to 2k revs and then almost flatlines. It literally crawls up to approx 3,500 revs and then bang...turbo kicks in and we're away. While the problem is present I have to VERY careful at junctions to keep the car revved as if I don't I could pull out and have the power loss occur as a car/truck/bus comes screaming on me from behind.

I say when the problem is present occurs coz its variable. It lasts for maybe a few weeks than stops. I had it a couple of weeks ago...now currently no sign of. But from experience it will come back. Its probably my imagination but I thought the problem frequency seemed to be reduced during the cold snap here but that could have been a combination of wishful thinking and not wearing a hat....


I'm sorry about the nature/length of this post but to be perfectly honest this forum is becoming my last resort for a hope of any decent help.

Thanks in advance
Click to expand...


Have a look at this thread and specifically post #6
Won't Start, High Pressure Sensor

Interesting that it is intermittent but more specifically in the morning, could be due to moisture that has built up over the night, hinting towards a connection issue.

I take it once the car warms up all is well, no hesitation or anything.

in all honesty it could be a few different problems, the variable intermittancy sounds very much like the IMRC solenoid issue as it seemed to happen in bouts and then be fine.

As the i-ctdi is a very sensitive piece of machinery it isn't always the case that you will get fault codes/warning lights, for things like IMRC solenoid, fuel filter etc.

Best of luck
 
Thanks again Guys. I appreciate you all taking time on this. I also see that this is starting to look not so straightforward.

I'm generally handy but little to no experience with engines. Is there any DIY-type guides to following Terry's advice?

More generally-and this is not going to be easy for the majority of members to answer-do any of the Irish members here have any advice on what dealership/garage to bring the car for a look over? It seems the rest of you are pretty blessed to have a dealer like Holdcroft Honda there whos reputation seems to be beyond dispute. Being blatently honest I don't think I've got the level of attention to detail that this problem sounds like it needs from the Honda dealers that I've been to on this side ...From experience to date I wouldn't be expecting a favourable response from the ones I've been to if I was to start talking IMRC solenoids to them...!
 
what doesn't seem right to me is its gone to Honda again and they say it smells of petrol after a year off putting petrol in the car it shouldn't smell of petrol now are you sure you haven't done it again? also if you have put petrol in and run it (it will run to a certain degree up to about 50:50 mix), it may well have damaged the high pressure fuel pump as this runs very tight tolerances and needs diesel as a lubricant petrol will wash this out i think you need to get fuel pressures checked
 
Paul said:
what doesn't seem right to me is its gone to Honda again and they say it smells of petrol after a year off putting petrol in the car it shouldn't smell of petrol now are you sure you haven't done it again? also if you have put petrol in and run it (it will run to a certain degree up to about 50:50 mix), it may well have damaged the high pressure fuel pump as this runs very tight tolerances and needs diesel as a lubricant petrol will wash this out i think you need to get fuel pressures checked
Click to expand...

...believe me Paul...I wish it was so straightforward and that it was a just a second case of me being an idiot again. At least that way the solution might be more obvious than its turning out to be.

No...no petrol recently...and like I say I didn't start it the one time I did do it. It stayed where it was, blocking a pump, for nearly two deeply embarassing hours until a truck came to take it to Honda for a drain and clean.
 
Ah man - no one helped you push it out of the way :lol:! That's harsh...

Seriously though, have you checked the EGR? Surprised someone neglected to mention it sooner - but then Beefy knows more than a lot of us combined ;).
 
Just by way of update....

I spoke to Universal Honda (Irish national distributors) AND Holdcroft Honda yesterday....

Universal Honda reckon its tricky with the intermittant nature of fault but say their initial money's on Dan and his suggestion on EGR. They reckon that if it's an injector or turbo you'd expect excess smoke, neither of which I'm getting.

Holdcroft Honda (and given the time that their tech gave to an out of the blue caller, I can only concur with the recommendations for them on this site) reckoned as a first pass to try draining the fuel filter.
 
Hi. I am in Galway. I was having some small issues like this - I have a 2008 Irish 7th gen - there was a combination of issues, one of them being that the dealer that I had bought the car from had broken the EVR, I am not too sure how - perhaps by putting the pipes on in reverse, I am not too sure. Once I got this sorted it seemed to get rid of a good bit of the lag. The other one that is top of the list is the fuel filter - perhaps this forum has some easy step by step way of changing it if you have a look - my mechanic and I have done it once. This also got rid of the last of the lag. I always try and dirve my car till the fuel light comes on - and then fill the tank up again - this helps to figure out what my MPG is and also hopefully stops buildup of too much dirt/condensation in the tank and fuel system.

There is a known problem with some of the accords - pre face lift that need a new set of injectors, timing chain and sprocket set - I am not too sure of the details of the issues he was experiencing but can find out from my own mechanic. A customer of his is currently gettting the work done on a pre face lift model - Honda are looking after him I think - they are supplying the parts and the owner is paying for the labour. Given that the parts are circa €2500k fair play to Honda.

Hope you get sorted.
 
If its not spooling til late then my monies on egr valve stuck open, classic sign of a faulty open egr nothing........then wham! sorry if its been mentioned already, in a hurry to get out the house.
 
I agree this is a combination of issues but try this:
Try cleaning the connector to the electronic accelerator with something like CRC electronic contact cleaner. This worked for me.
Hope this helps
 
Hi All
...and apologies for delay in getting back to this. Life certainly gets in the way sometimes!!

By way of closure on this and hopefully in order to help some others with this issue I can report the following...Honda dealer took the car in (I was driving a garage Kia for quite a while!) and they struggled with trying to solve the problem. Eventually they replaced both valves (high and low pressure apparently) on the fuel pump. Car seems to have driven fine since. Perhaps ever so marginally a small, tiny edge gone off perfomance but I'm putting that down to age (car not mine!), 150,000 miles on the clock and user psychology.

I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to try and help...this really is a great resource.

Thanks All
RMF
 
Hi Reamonn - thanks for taking the time to report back.

Happy motoring.
 
RMF said:
Hi All
...and apologies for delay in getting back to this. Life certainly gets in the way sometimes!!

By way of closure on this and hopefully in order to help some others with this issue I can report the following...Honda dealer took the car in (I was driving a garage Kia for quite a while!) and they struggled with trying to solve the problem. Eventually they replaced both valves (high and low pressure apparently) on the fuel pump. Car seems to have driven fine since. Perhaps ever so marginally a small, tiny edge gone off perfomance but I'm putting that down to age (car not mine!), 150,000 miles on the clock and user psychology.

I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to try and help...this really is a great resource.

Thanks All
RMF
Click to expand...


Hi Guys

I have been struggling with these symptoms on my car for over a year now. I've replaced the IMRC solenoid, replaced the fuel filter, have had Fahad's "EGR off" tune, and now things are just getting worse - car is almost undrivable when cold / damp. When Gahad did the tune he also ran the diagnostics on the engine which came back clean, and there are no lights / codes.

It sounds like the solution above may be the magic bullet I have been looking for - but could anyone enlighten me as to what and where the valves on the fuel pump are? Is it the fuel injection pump (eek! £££!) or is it the standard lift pump from the tank? Is there a DIY solution or does it have to go to Honda or a diesel injection specialist?

Thanks

Steve
 
mutley said:
Hi Guys

I have been struggling with these symptoms on my car for over a year now. I've replaced the IMRC solenoid, replaced the fuel filter, have had Fahad's "EGR off" tune, and now things are just getting worse - car is almost undrivable when cold / damp. When Gahad did the tune he also ran the diagnostics on the engine which came back clean, and there are no lights / codes.

It sounds like the solution above may be the magic bullet I have been looking for - but could anyone enlighten me as to what and where the valves on the fuel pump are? Is it the fuel injection pump (eek! £££!) or is it the standard lift pump from the tank? Is there a DIY solution or does it have to go to Honda or a diesel injection specialist?

Thanks

Steve
Click to expand...
I guess it might be the pump component I've just replaced... http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/12692-fuel-pump-solenoid-removal/ but I don't think your description of the problem really fits this solution. Further Bosch CP3 pump overhaul details here... http://www.dieselbombers.com/chevrolet-gmc-diesel-tech-articles/5453-cp3-modifications-you-can-do-yourself.html

For info, both the high pressure and the transfer/lift pumps are combined within the one housing, see Bosch CP3 fuel pump,.. http://www.yildiz.edu.tr/~oisin/Dersler/Dersnotlari/0653611/dinjection.pdf

It is hard to imagine what might cause you a cold/damp problem on a diesel, as no high-voltage system, but possibly still an electrical issue? Do you have a code reader - might be worth seeing if the ECU has stored any recent fault codes?

EDIT - if you need parts for the injection system, I used this guy... http://www.pslaterfie.co.uk/index.php who got the genuine Bosch part quickly and was cheaper that all the other places I contacted
 
Unfortunately there are no magic bullets when it comes to diagnosing this sort of thing because the same, or similar, symptoms can have a number of causes. If you look at the third link which Jon supplied you will find towards the end a part on diagnosing such problems and this, or similar, needs to be followed to properly diagnose the problem without replacing expensive bits and pieces unnecessarily.

That said, my first port of call given that you say the problem is worse when damp would be to inspect very carefully all the relevant wiring and connectors.

Sorry not to be able to give the answer you were hoping for.
 
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