Still have hesitation after FSV change

[Mike_Mac]

I had a slight hesitation when I bought my CTDi, but the Elite Remap really highlighted that there was a problem.

I cleaned the swirl valve, MAF and MAP sensors, EGR (although, I think, not properly) and what parts of the intake manifold I could get to, but this didn't change anything. I then read the Freq Solenoid Valve TSB posted by CJ, and disconnected my FSV to check. The car then drove great, but put out a lot of smoke on acceleration.

I then replaced the FSV and filter, but, although it's improved, and there's very little smoke, the hesitation is still very noticeably there and really spoils the car. I'm now running with the FSV disconnected again, but am really considering jacking this car in, as it's really getting me down now after over 2 months of fiddling about.

I could use advice on the following please:

1 - Am I ok running with the FSV disconnected in the interim, as I don't know what else the Freq Solenoid Valve controls, or affects.

2 - My replacement FSV has the part number 101360-4800, FRS3 and 480 on the unit itself. This doesn't seem to bear any resemblance to the redesigned part number that CJ posted: 36190-RSR-E01 - is it the correct part?

3 - If the FSV is the correct one and bearing in mind what I've done already, I don't know what to do next . To me after reading all the threads it could be down to any one or several of the MAF, MAP, EGR, FSV, EVR(?) or something else entirely. Most of those bits are expensive and I can't afford to just start changing parts at random. I also don't want to take it to my local dealer, who'll probably adopt the same approach, but also charge me labour on top of that. What would be peoples suggestions on what to do next?...

(PS: If anyone says 'buy a Petrol' then they can sod off!!!

)

 

[Doc]

Lets start with the obvious question, are you using a genuine Honda fuel filter?

 

[Mike_Mac]

Lets start with the obvious question, are you using a genuine Honda fuel filter?

Yes - and in advance of all the others - car has just been serviced at my local dealer, where it had 0-30 oil and new Honda fuel and air filters fitted, which I had provided. I've also run some BG244 through it to clear out any residual crud and have used Shell VPD since I got it.

(should have mentioned all that - sorry!

).

 

[vile]

I nether solved this problem with my old car i just got used to it.
I think there are still members hear that are in the same boat to be honest.

 

[joooe]

As a last resort did you tried this:
http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/4839-accelerator-sensor-cable-slack/page__p__57192__fromsearch__1#entry57192

You never know. Good luck.

 

[Mike_Mac]

As a last resort did you tried this:
http://typeaccord.co...h__1#entry57192

You never know. Good luck.

I will be trying this when I get back to work next week (all my tools are there), but don't hold out much hope, as the car drives fine with the FSV disconnected. Still it should help with the pedal feel.

 

[CJM]

Can you describe where about the hesitation is, i.e warming up, only when cold/warm etc, is yours a facelift model?


Maybe worth putting it back to stock and seeing how the hesitation is, then taking back to a dealer for diagnostics.

Ideally you don't want to be running around too long without the FSV connected.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Has the ecu been reset since the new fsv?

 

[kingnesh]

I would just say that it is a common issue on the facelift if you have one. I know a whole load of people which have the issue now. I have changed MAF, EGR, FSV, MAP, FF and a number of other things. I have now had the remap removed and its nowhere near as noticable. Yes the remap exagerates it, but to be honest i hardly ever notice mine now. Just check all the vacum pipes are OK. I highly doubt it is the TPS which is mentined in the link as I think it would be there all the time. I have a suspicion that it maybe the veins in the turbo that have got clogged up over the years. I know that the pre facelift and facelift have slightly different engines and completely different EGS systems and i suspect this revised system causes some issues. The amount of gunk you find in the facelift swirlvalve is usually alot worse than that of the pre facelift.

I would just learn to live with it. Also mine has been to my local Honda garage and HH numerous times for diagnostics, injector recalibration etc but nothing has ever been diagnosed apart from the exhaust manifold issue.

Sorry i couldnt be of more help, but I just dont want you wasting money on parts like I did.

 

[Mike_Mac]

Can you describe where about the hesitation is, i.e warming up, only when cold/warm etc, is yours a facelift model?

May be worth putting it back to stock and seeing how the hesitation is, then taking back to a dealer for diagnostics.

The car is a facelift (06 plate) with 50K on the clock (35K when I got it). The hesitation occurs at all temps when applying the throttle; primarily when accelerating, but also sometimes when cruising at a constant speed.

Might put it back to stock to see what happens, but I really like the power the remap gives and if it turns out that that's the only way to mitigate it long term then I'll probably get rid TBH.

Has the ecu been reset since the new fsv?

Yes it has - any time I make a change (disconnect / reconnect FSV, clean sensors etc) I reset it. I do a lot of miles so it also has the opportunity to re-learn quickly.

I would just say that it is a common issue on the facelift if you have one. I know a whole load of people which have the issue now. I have changed MAF, EGR, FSV, MAP, FF and a number of other things. I have now had the remap removed and its nowhere near as noticable. Yes the remap exagerates it, but to be honest i hardly ever notice mine now. Just check all the vacum pipes are OK. I highly doubt it is the TPS which is mentined in the link as I think it would be there all the time. I have a suspicion that it maybe the veins in the turbo that have got clogged up over the years. I know that the pre facelift and facelift have slightly different engines and completely different EGS systems and i suspect this revised system causes some issues. The amount of gunk you find in the facelift swirlvalve is usually alot worse than that of the pre facelift.

I would just learn to live with it. Also mine has been to my local Honda garage and HH numerous times for diagnostics, injector recalibration etc but nothing has ever been diagnosed apart from the exhaust manifold issue.

Sorry i couldnt be of more help, but I just dont want you wasting money on parts like I did.

That is a lot of help, thanks, as my next steps were probably going to be replacing the MAF, MAP and EGR in that order, so long as the new FSV is the correct part. If that's been tried, and failed, then it's saved money I don't really have just now.

WRT Turbo gunk - I'd have thought if that was the cause then, again, the engine wouldn't run smoothly with the FSV disconnected. It's got to be something in that loop, but I don't know how many other sensors etc use its feed too.

 

[Chriseybaby]

Im in the same boat as you, I cleaned the EGR and inlet and all was fine, but after 200 or so miles it started again.

Then changed the fuel filter and all seemed fine for 100 or so miles then started again (Although I did break the EVR filter so I'm hoping that may be causing it).

I have a remap from elite too and hadn't noticed the problem before, but really can't afford to go spending too much to sort it. I haven't tried disconnecting the FSV yet since I don't have a code reader to clear the code after.

t is a very nice car though, but I do keep seeing the new A4's and slightly older A6's going past and thinking how nice one would be.

Not feeling the Honda happiness right now!

 

[Mike_Mac]

I haven't tried disconnecting the FSV yet since I don't have a code reader to clear the code after


Not feeling the Honda happiness right now!

The Fault light will reset itself after a while when you re-connect the sensor and so long as you mention it to Honda when it goes back in for a service they can reset the stored code for you then.

I must admit I didn't get a Honda to start spending all my spare time fiddling with it, just to get it running correctly. Bit peeved TBH!

 

[Chriseybaby]

The Fault light will reset itself after a while when you re-connect the sensor and so long as you mention it to Honda when it goes back in for a service they can reset the stored code for you then.

I must admit I didn't get a Honda to start spending all my spare time fiddling with it, just to get it running correctly. Bit peeved TBH!

Spare time I don't mind spending, money I do!

It might be worth checking on the part number, because from my research it seems that you definitely need 36190-RSR-E01 which is the revised part number for a facelift

 

[Mike_Mac]

It might be worth checking on the part number, because from my research it seems that you definitely need 36190-RSR-E01 which is the revised part number for a facelift

Agreed - I'll be calling my local dealer tomorrow to check, although I used the E01 number to order it. We'll see.

I've spent today checking through everything that's attached to the FSV - if the car only staggers when it's attached it must be something on that loop causing problems. Therefore I decided to look at the EVR filters; if the FSV filter can become really clogged then possibly they can too. On stripping the filters down they were both quite dirty inside, so you never know it might make a difference, seeing as they're all linked into the same loop as the FSV.

I removed them, plugged the FSV back in and spent most of the afternoon driving around (decided to risk letting unfiltered air into the EVRs). So far there was only the tiniest stutter towards the end, so i'll try making up a new filter element, re-install them and see how it develops.


BTW - is there a part number for the EVR filters - someone mentioned they could be bought for about £8, but no further info was given.

 

[Chriseybaby]

Fingers crossed u get it sorted, if u do let us know how!
I'm gonna take a look at the throttle cable but don't hold out much hope for it

 

[Dan Robinson]

That won't do 'owt mate.... Drive-by-wire....

 

[Mike_Mac]

Well I've checked with Honda and it looks like the numbers on the FSV are just the manufacturer's part number, different from the Honda one, so that seems all good.

The EVR filters cannot be bought separately, you need to buy the EVR itself. Seeing as there's two of them at £153 plus VAT each I'm not getting them just replace two minuscule filters - can't believe that Honda don't have a number for them. Looking inside mine they were definitely dirty, so it's not like you could leave them for the life of the car. Having to buy two new EVRs just for that is ridiculous!! I'm definitely not impressed.

The only solutions I can think of is if someone has the details for the EVR part supplier and I can contact them direct - they may be able to help. the only other option is to make a new filter element, which is what I'm currently planning to do using cut-outs from a pollen filter. A bodge, but it can't be helped.

Other than that I've now driven a good 150 miles with the EVR filters off and, although it seems to have made quite a difference, the stutter is still there. It seems to be mainly at around 1500 RPM with a light constant throttle. I don't know if this is a transition point where the swirl valve is either opened or closed, but it seems to be pretty focused on that part of the rev range. I'm going to keep on driving and see if it gets worse.

ETA - when I was at the dealers I also tried to order a vacuum pipe (#29 in the Lings diagram of the FSV) only to be told that it has been discontinued! Had to buy 1 metre of generic tube and cut it to fit. Quite surprised at that too.

 

[Mike_Mac]

In the end I've had no joy in finding the EVR filters, so I've cut new elements from a Pollen Filter (better £18 for that than £360 for new EVRs) and fitted the EVRs all back together.

Looking below you can see the state the old elements were in vs the new - it was even blacker without the flash!

After this I've had the car out most evenings putting about 50 miles on it each time, trying to keep it at the point where it hesitates as much as possible, and as time has passed it has made a big difference - after a few initial burps the car now has no hesitation where it used to stutter, even when trying to provoke it. In normal driving you can't feel it at all. The only thing I've had a few times is when starting off from cold the engine sometimes hesitates, but that's only happened twice out of the 40-50 times I've started it up and after that the car behaved normally.

FWIW my feeling is that it's not enough just replacing the FSV and its filter - the EVRs are on the same vacuum pipe line and if one filter on it is clogged up then the others will be too. It's definitely worth giving it a try if you still have hesitation, just reset the ECU afterwards, so the car learns the new air flow quicker - I didn't and I think that's why it took 100+ miles to settle down.

I think the remaining issues on starting are EGR related, as I've not cleaned it out properly yet and, again, if the engine hadn't been running right due to the FSV fault then the EGR will be clogged up as well. MAF, MAP and IMRC valve are also relevant, but I've done them already. In addition having seen the state of most inlet manifolds I believe they might be contributing too. They are shaped very carefully to direct the flow of air into the engine and therefore it follows that a build-up of crud, especially at low engine speeds, would affect how the car takes in air.

Therefore on Monday I'll be doing a full-on clean of the EGR and I will also book it in next weekend to get the manifold off completely and thoroughly cleaned - not just the bits you can reach while it's still attached.. I would have a go myself, but you need to remove the Injection rail by the looks of it and I'd rather a proper mechanic does that!

I'll report back what happens and also whether or not the hesitation stays away, but so far I am encouraged to the point where I've stopped looking at other cars I could chop this one in for and have also cancelled a test drive of an A4 that I was going to see this week.

(BTW - I also tightened up the throttle cable, which had an incredible amount of slack in it, and it's made a big difference to the driveability - I knew it wouldn't help with the hesitation, but I can totally recommend you do it if you haven't already done it, just for the improved feel.

 

[Paul the Bobby]

Very good write up! A+ mate.

 

[tbourner]

What's an EVR?

 

[F6HAD]

Just catching up with this.. nice to see you're getting to the bottom of it Michael!

 

[Mike_Mac]

What's an EVR?

There's a Lings diagram in the main hesitation thread that shows them, along with the FSV and its filter. Its part # 5 in Post #4 in that thread

Basically if you look at the FSV and filter at the front of the engine bay and then follow the vacuum lines on it backwards you will find two separate small black plastic cylinders with a cylindrical filter and a female connection. They look similar to some of the VSVs on a Supra.

As to what it does I can only ***ume it acts to control the flow of air to and from the IMRC, along with the FSV. My thinking is that if they are working in relation to each other then if the FSV filter is clogged (as mine was - big time) then the others must be dirty too (which they were). Therefore if the FSV being clogged can amplify the hesitation, then so can the EVRs, even though the FSV being faulty was the primary cause.

 

[TheJamMod]

I have the same issue: the engine staggers at around 1500rpm during warm-up. Might consider this fix at the next service interval.

 

[Chriseybaby]

Im guessing you now have a pollen filter with 2 holes thats not much use? Fancy selling a small piece so I can have a go on mine? Did the tops pop out with a screwdriver?

 

[Mike_Mac]

Im guessing you now have a pollen filter with 2 holes thats not much use? Fancy selling a small piece so I can have a go on mine? Did the tops pop out with a screwdriver?

I do indeed!

. PM me your address and I'll send a strip out. The tops pop off easily - best to use two small screwdrivers together to avoid damaging them.

On other news it started to stagger a little bit today (and only a little bit) during one drive, which annoyed me, but as I was doing the EGR that night I thought I'd have a close look at it then...

I'm going to post a new thread for advice on what I found - as it looks like my local dealer has over filled the oil massively...

Seriously teed off now!!

 

[Mike_Mac]

Well it's back from Honda Salisbury with the oil at the correct level. The dealer that did the service seems willing to talk about it, so I'll see them when I get home this week-end. The engineer seems to think it'll be ok, but couldn't advise doing more than I already had in terms of clearing things out. I'll probably ask the original dealer to note that this has happened and if anything crops up downstream with seals etc then I have a leg to stand on, plus a discount on the next service seems fair to me!

What's really getting me though is that after almost 9 days of no problems the hesitation is back. It's not really bad, but it's there most, if not all, of the time. I had the dealer look at it today and got charged £100 for him to agree that it's definitely hesitating and that the Honda tech database suggests the cuse is the EGR. He also said that there was a revised EGR put out to solve the hesitancy issue and quoted me for sourcing one (£613!!). The part number was 18710-RSR-E01


Can anyone confirm if any of this is correct, and that there is a revised EGR for the Accord? To be honest, based on the attitude of the Tech who dealt with me I feel like i'm being fed the 'fault-finding by expensive parts replacement' technique and it would be a non-return item. If there is something on the tech database then what does it say? They wouldn't let me see it, or tell me what the next stage was if the new EGR didn't solve the issue!

ETA: - I've just had a look at the IMRC actuator and the EGR diaphragm and both seem to move in concert with throttle applications - surely this wouldn't happen if the EGR was duff?

 

[Mike_Mac]

Well as per this thread: http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/6347-premier-tuning-accord-i-ctdi-egr-delete-solution/ I have found a 'third way'! As I have posted there I am completely happy with the EGR off Map and it has totally solved the problem 100%. Considering the alternative solution would have inevitably led to me replacing lots of expensive components, I feel this makes a lot more sense.

Saying that I still have the original Map for my car, so I can still switch back to that if I want to take it to a dealer I trust to see if they can do any better with diagnosis. I feel that there are too many people who have this engine in the Civic and the Accord for Honda to ignore it. It has to be either the FSV (still), EGR, EVR, or IMRC that is the root cause.

In addition before I installed the EGR off Map I had a look over a work colleague's CRV with the 2.2 C-TDi that had the same mileage as mine. It drove brilliantly and all the sensors (MAP, MAF) were immaculate. Looking in the engine bay the setup for the EGR was totally different to the Accord. There was the EGR and FSV as expected, but in addition there was another FSV and another EGR to the left of the engine where the exhaust gas pipe comes from the engine to the main EGR. I suspect that this dual setup is better than the single setup on the Accord and may explain a reason for a revised EGR to be released for the Accord (if what I was told by the dealer was correct).

I can't seem to find any threads about CRVs having the same hesitation issue - has anyone else?

 

[F6HAD]

Michael, you may well be on to something there. I've only tuned a handful of CRV's so far (they're not a common car to be requested, probably down to the sort of people that would generally drive them) but I do know the mapping parameters are completely different to the Civic and Accord, not just because of their AWD system which affects the torque limiters.. Also, next time you look at the CRV ctdi engine, look at the size of the airbox.. it's twice as big as the Accord.

 

[Mike_Mac]

Michael, you may well be on to something there. I've only tuned a handful of CRV's so far (they're not a common car to be requested, probably down to the sort of people that would generally drive them) but I do know the mapping parameters are completely different to the Civic and Accord, not just because of their AWD system which affects the torque limiters.. Also, next time you look at the CRV ctdi engine, look at the size of the airbox.. it's twice as big as the Accord.

It certainly has been designed that way for a reason:

FSV 1 was a 470 part number, unlike the 480 the Accord has, and still had the in-line filter. FSV 2 was the same basic setup, but I couldn't get a part number off it. EGR 1 was plumbed in similarly to the Accord, but EGR 2 sat at the start point of the exhaust pipe that feeds EGR 1 to control the flow of gas there. the two FSVs were plumbed in such that FSV 1 coordinated EGR 1 and the IMRC and FSV 2 coordinated EGR 2 with both the previous items. Again it really need someone who's a Honda Techie to do a bit of digging into the nuts of it, but it looks from a layman's perspective that the system is now able to be controlled a lot more finely than with just the single EGR the Accord has.

Don't know if this is in any way relevant, but if the claim made by the Honda Tech guy I spoke to that the Accord EGR has been revised is true, then it may be in an attempt to engineer out the weakness of a single EGR on the Accord. There has already been a revised EGR put out for the Civic IIRC, so there could be something worth digging into there.

I was tempted to try the 'new' EGR, but, based on the experience of those who've tried this, didn't want to punt £600 without any confirmation that what I'd been told was correct about there being a revised part out there. Plus the EGR off remap solvesd the problem anyway.

 

[tbourner]

What's on the i-DTEC then? Revised EGR or twin EGR or what?