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Strange problem with my Accord

Z

zerachiel76

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Honda Accord
I'm having some problems with my 54 Accord Tourer and I'm hoping someone can throw some light on it. I've also posted this it Civinfo.com but I'm putting it here now Jon G has kindly helped me get me account fixed.

About a month ago my engine cut out when pulling from a side road which is on quite a steep slope and the glow plug light started flashing as air had somehow got into the fuel system. I tried manually priming the pump but couldn't get it to start so I called the AA. They primed it some more and after about 15 seconds of cranking the engine started and there were no warning lights showing so I didn't think any more of it.

About a week later I was pulling out of another side road (also on quite a steep slope) when the engine management light came on and the car went into limp mode.

I took the car to my local garage who gave me 3 fault codes:
P1384 glow plug circuit fault
P0087 Fuel rail / System pressure too low
P1065 fuel pressure lower than expected

The garage replaced the fuel filter with a genuine honda/bosch one but this didn't clear the fault codes and so they told me I may need either a fuel pump or a fuel rail and gave me Honda's prices and I nearly had a heart attack. I paid them for their work in replacing the fuel filter and took the car back and since then further strangeness has happened.

Twice, once the engine has warmed up and has driven about 10 miles at high speed on the motorway (70mph) the engine would suddenly rev over 2000rpm and drive normally but the engine management light remained on.

Even more odd was that when I parked the car, left it for around 20 mins and came back to it the engine management light had switched off and the car drove normally. However when I've left the car overnight the engine management light has then come back on and the car is back in limp mode.

I can only think that something is happening when the engine warms up and revs to 2000 rpm for an extended period.

I've put some fuel additive in the fuel in case there was something in the fuel lines somewhere which was causing the problems but so far this hasn't helped.

I've read through all the different potential problems which may be causing it and I also wonder whether the initial fault and subsequent problems both happened on a steep slope have anything to do with what is wrong.

I'm considering doing one (or possibly more) of the following but I'm not sure which is best to start with considering I've seemingly ruled out the fuel filter already.

[SIZE=13.3333330154419px]This morning my wife has noticed that the car appears to be leaking diesel or oil from somewhere. I've taken a photo of the only place I can see where there is liquid actually on the engine but I'm not sure how to add the picture in this text as there isn't an "attachment" button above.[/SIZE]

I'm considering doing one or more of the following to see if it'll fix it but I'm on a tight budget so I'm not sure which is the best place to start.

1 - Buying a brand new overpressure valve (like this one Bosch Honda Pressure Relief Valve F00R 001 166 | eBay) and getting it fitted but otherwise not replacing the fuel rail or fuel pump

2 - Buying a used fuel rail system (like this one HONDA 2.2 Diesel Fuel Rail 0445214051 16610RBDE01 Civic CRV Accord | eBay) and getting it fitted but not buying a new overpressure valve or fuel pump

3 - Buying a used fuel pump (like this one HONDA ACCORD/CIVIC/CRV 2.2 CDTI DIESEL INJECTOR PUMP | eBay)

4 - As per Jon's suggestion replacing the injectors with ones like these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HONDA-2-2-i-CDTi-0445110172-0445110236-16450RMAE01-16450RBDE01-BOSCH-INJECTOR-/321614280460?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&fits=Car+Make%3AHonda%7CCars+Year%3A2004&hash=item4ae1b4770c

Therefore please can you give me some advice based on the strange way the fault seems to disappear at times but then keeps returning.

Thanks in advance
 
Well the strangeness continues as I've driven around in it this morning and once again the fault has disappeared once the engine warmed up. I'm expecting it to have come back by the time I drive it again later.
 
Just to be clear, I wouldn't recommend replacing the injectors before establishing beyond doubt that they definitely need replacing! Same goes for all the other parts really, as they all cost a fair bit and diagnostics is relatively cheap.

To insert a picture, use the 'image' button, almost below the reply box tool bar smiley. It might be useful to see this picture.
 
Thanks Jon, the image button asks me to put a URL in but the image is saved on my pc so it doesn't have a URL so I'm a bit stuck.

Thanks for the advice here and at civinfo. I've tried to find the overpressure relief valve in the engine bay but I think it might be under the black plastic cover as I can't see it.
 
The picture needs to be stored at a location with a URL... I use Photobucket to store my pictures and they are easy to post from there.

Yes, you need to remove the black plastic top cover... only four 10mm nuts (carefully remove the washers!) and it lifts off. No point in putting it back on again until after the car is fixed.
 
MAKE SURE YOUR FILTER LOOKS LIKE THIS

filtersony005_zpsb2d927eb.jpg


And the pipes are connected properly. The bleed nut should be closest to the bulkhead.

re the pictures, as Jon says load to photo bucket then go, share links, then copy image, When you come here click the image icon and the image will come up in text starting "URL------------------IMAGE----------------IMG----------URL, delete the URL bit leaving just {IMG-----------------------------------IMG} then your picture will come up. Good luck with both.
filtersony007_zpscc230665.jpg
 
Option 1, it's your pressure relief valve. Becoming very common on these cars now.

Had a 2008 focus diesel in the workshop last week with an identical problem, needed the same part.
 
F6HAD said:
Option 1, it's your pressure relief valve. Becoming very common on these cars now.

Had a 2008 focus diesel in the workshop last week with an identical problem, needed the same part.
Click to expand...
Thanks Fahad, do you have any idea why as the engine gets warm the fault goes away and then comes back when the engine gets cold?
 
Hopefully this link will work. Thanks as well to Jon and EdgeofTime. I can't see the fuel filter apart from its bright shiny new top.

Also just before I order it, the valve I linked above in option 1 is the correct one for the 2.2 CDTi isn't it?

20141218_094843.jpg
 
If you can see the top of the filter then that's where the bleed bolt is that you were looking for. There are also arrows showing the direction of flow. it is definitely worth checking that the filter was correctly fitted.

And personally, I'd really want to do the simple leakage test before splashing out over £100 for the valve, as it could just as easily be an injector that's leaking rail pressure back to the tank (if that IS the problem). I supplied a link to a DIY for this on your Civinfo thread.
 
Hi everyone, just thought I'd update you all since I've now had the relief valve replaced. The 2 original errors have gone (woohoo, thanks for the advice on the relief valve) but I'm now getting a P1384 Glow Plug Circuit Malfunction error which from reading on this site and on Civinfo is caused by either a faulty/broken glow plug or the glow plug relay.

Does my vehicle only take glow plugs like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4X-0250503003-Bosch-Glow-Plug-For-Honda-CR-V-FR-V-ACCORD-CIVIC-2-2-CTDI-/271706956698?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3f42ff239a or are there others?

Also, is this the correct relay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HONDA-ACCORD-2-2-I-CDTI-GLOW-PLUG-RELAY-0281003030-2003-2007-/251757724223?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3a9dee023f

Thanks for your help :)
 
Odd that the P1384 only started after having the rail valve replaced... I'm guessing the mechanic has either whacked a glowplug or knocked off a connector? Definitely worth checking the connectors!

It can't be the glowplugs AND the relay... I'd use a multimeter to find out if one of the glowplugs has gone open circuit (and then replace just that one) or whether there's no voltage present on any of the glowplugs during startup, indicating a likely relay problem.

I do not know the Bosch part numbers for the above, but the Honda part numbers can be obtained from the lingshondaparts.com website.
 
Only use genuine honda glow plugs please
 
Thanks for both of your replies. I should have said I've driven the car home since the garage couldn't work on it any further today and they'd completed the relief valve which I'd booked the car in for. Since the car starts fine I'm ***uming that it can't be a problem with all of the glow plugs and there can't be no voltage across all the glow plugs for the same reason.

Prior to posting I had looked on the Lings site (but forgot to put it in the message) on this page http://www.lingshondaparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17SED01&block_02=E__4010&block_03=521 but the part number listed PFKL272783 doesn't seem to correspond to anything else I can find.

For instance this other site http://www.coxmotorparts.co.uk/genuine-honda-icdti-diesel-glow-plug-x1-p-3300.html states the glow plug part number is 12291-RBD-E01

While this site http://www.caarparts.co.uk/Ignition-Parts/Glow-Plugs-Diesel/Honda/Accord/all/2.2/2012/Parts.aspx lists the part number as ADH21804 .

Hence I'm thoroughly confused about what the genuine Honda Bosch number is for the glowplug.
 
zerachiel76 said:
Prior to posting I had looked on the Lings site (but forgot to put it in the message) on this page http://www.lingshondaparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17SED01&block_02=E__4010&block_03=521 but the part number listed PFKL272783 doesn't seem to correspond to anything else I can find.

For instance this other site http://www.coxmotorparts.co.uk/genuine-honda-icdti-diesel-glow-plug-x1-p-3300.html states the glow plug part number is 12291-RBD-E01

and this website http://www.caarparts.co.uk/Ignition-Parts/Glow-Plugs-Diesel/Honda/Accord/all/2.2/2012/Parts.aspx
ists the part number as ADH21804

Hence I'm thoroughly confused about what the genuine Honda Bosch number is for the glowplug.
Click to expand...
those "PFKL" numbers are Lings' part numbers, to get proper Honda part numbers you have to remove the "_pfk" from the URL

done it here and now you see the Honda part numbers
http://www.lingshondaparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection.php?block_01=17SED01&block_02=E__4010&block_03=521

so you can see the difference

before /honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17SED01&block_02=E__4010&block_03=521

after /honda_car_parts_selection.php?block_01=17SED01&block_02=E__4010&block_03=521



edit: that "carparts" website also has their own part numbers
 
freddofrog said:
those "PFKL" numbers are Lings' part numbers, to get proper Honda part numbers you have to remove the "_pfk" from the URL

done it here and now you see the Honda part numbers
http://www.lingshondaparts.com/honda_car_parts_selection.php?block_01=17SED01&block_02=E__4010&block_03=521

so you can see the difference

before /honda_car_parts_selection_pfk.php?block_01=17SED01&block_02=E__4010&block_03=521

after /honda_car_parts_selection.php?block_01=17SED01&block_02=E__4010&block_03=521



edit: that "carparts" website also has their own part numbers
Click to expand...
Thanks, that's great :) Found the correct ones now
 
Unless it's really cold the car will start perfectly OK without any glowplugs working (I don't often wait for mine to heat up), so I don't think you can be sure whether you need glowplugs or the relay. It is very easy to test the system... a lamp and jump leads can be used if you don't have multimeter.
 
Jon_G said:
Unless it's really cold the car will start perfectly OK without any glowplugs working (I don't often wait for mine to heat up), so I don't think you can be sure whether you need glowplugs or the relay. It is very easy to test the system... a lamp and jump leads can be used if you don't have multimeter.
Click to expand...
Really? I didn't know that. I thought the glow plugs needed to heat the diesel up before it would explode? Will cranking the engine create enough pressure in the diesel to heat it up and make it explode?
 
zerachiel76 said:
Really? I didn't know that. I thought the glow plugs needed to heat the diesel up before it would explode? Will cranking the engine create enough pressure in the diesel to heat it up and make it explode?
Click to expand...
no, diesel engines are "compression ignition", the heat from the high compression ratio actually causes the fuel to self-ignite ....explode is not semantically close

the glow plugs heat the cylinder up, which helps for the first few compression cycles.
 
freddofrog said:
no, diesel engines are "compression ignition", the heat from the high compression ratio actually causes the fuel to self-ignite ....explode is not semantically close

the glow plugs heat the cylinder up, which helps for the first few compression cycles.
Click to expand...
Yeah I realised they explode due to compression which is why the glow plugs are only needed when the vehicle is first started, but I thought that without glow plugs had to heat the diesel to close to exploding temperature the engine wouldn't start.

A few years back I had an older non turbo diesel and 3 of the 4 glow plugs went and it took ages to start. I thought it had a flat battery so I took it to a garage and they told me 3 of the glow plugs were cream crackered and as soon as they replaced them it started 1st time. Since my current vehicle doesn't have any of the same problems I don't think more than 1 of the plugs can be knackered but I'm not sure.

Thanks for all the info and I'll keep you updated as I've ordered some genuine honda glow plugs and once they've arrived I'll take it to the garage and have them check which of the glow plugs are not working as I don't have any equipment to do it myself unfortunately.
 
Hopefully the garage will check the car actually does need new glow plugs before wasting time and money in fitting new ones?
 
Modern diesels run at much higher pressures than a few years ago which means they don't need the glow plugs until the temperature is a lot lower, though they now sometimes continue to use them after the car has started to reduce warm up times and to keep the engine quieter.
 
Jon_G said:
Hopefully the garage will check the car actually does need new glow plugs before wasting time and money in fitting new ones?
Click to expand...
Yes I've spoken to them and they've confirmed they will.

Dave G said:
Modern diesels run at much higher pressures than a few years ago which means they don't need the glow plugs until the temperature is a lot lower, though they now sometimes continue to use them after the car has started to reduce warm up times and to keep the engine quieter.
Click to expand...
Oh right, I've learnt something new today! :) Serves me right not doing my homework about the differences between new and old diesels. :) The old diesel I had was a H plate 1.7 Vauxhall Cavalier and I knew some things about it so I thought the same would apply to this newer car lol. Ahh well,live and learn :)
 
zerachiel76 said:
I thought that without glow plugs had to heat the diesel to close to exploding temperature the engine wouldn't start.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what you mean by "exploding temperature" ......as with petrol, it's the vapour that burns, and diesel vapourises at a much higher temperature than petrol

Due to the high compression in a diesel engine, the air is so hot that when the diesel droplets are squirted into the cyclinder, they vapourise and then ignite. Both petrol and diesel vapour burns, it does not "explode".

The glow plugs "merely" heat up the metal in the cylinder walls and cylinder head, because if the walls and head are too cold, the air will lose heat far too quickly into the walls and head, thus the diesel droplets don't vapourise.
 
freddofrog said:
I'm not sure what you mean by "exploding temperature" ......as with petrol, it's the vapour that burns, and diesel vapourises at a much higher temperature than petrol

Due to the high compression in a diesel engine, the air is so hot that when the diesel droplets are squirted into the cyclinder, they vapourise and then ignite. Both petrol and diesel vapour burns, it does not "explode".

The glow plugs "merely" heat up the metal in the cylinder walls and cylinder head, because if the walls and head are too cold, the air will lose heat far too quickly into the walls and head, thus the diesel droplets don't vapourise.
Click to expand...
By exploding temperature I mean the ignition point, i.e. the temperature at which diesel ignites. From what I understand, when diesel heats up it turns to vapour which then explodes. The diesel is sprayed onto the glowplug which heats it to this ignition point so that when the engine is cranked it will compress the diesel and diesel vapour making it explode and starting the engine.

However I know that compression alone will also heat the air in the chamber causing the diesel to vapourise when it is injected, and then explode and this is what happens once the glow plugs have switched off and the engine is running.

I appreciate it's probably semantics and I agree the diesel burns, but as far as I'm aware; it is the diesel exploding which forces the pistons down. Simply burning would not cause the force needed to act on the piston heads to move the pistons down within the engine. Burning releases energy, but explosions release more energy. I thinking the difference between a fire burning and releasing heat relatively slowly (ie not consuming all the fuel at once) but not blowing up the fireplace; and a firework which also burns but explodes releasing a huge amount of energy quickly within a few seconds.

rhinogolf said:
Did you replace the fuel filter???
Click to expand...
Yes I did, thank you. It was the overpressure relief valve which was faulty and this has now been replaced. :)
 
Unlike a petrol engine, the process of fuel/air reaction in a diesel engine is one of rapid deflagration ('burning') rather than an explosion.

The definition of explosion rather than burning depends upon whether the chemical reaction front moves faster or slower through the medium (the fuel/air mix) than the speed of sound, and is not related to the available energy (which is actually slightly greater with diesel).
 
Jon_G said:
Unlike a petrol engine, the process of fuel/air reaction in a diesel engine is one of rapid deflagration ('burning') rather than an explosion.

The definition of explosion rather than burning depends upon whether the chemical reaction front moves faster or slower through the medium (the fuel/air mix) than the speed of sound, and is not related to the available energy (which is actually slightly greater with diesel).
Click to expand...
I wasn't aware of that difference in the definition, thanks :)
 
zerachiel76 said:
The diesel is sprayed onto the glowplug which heats it to this ignition point so that when the engine is cranked it will compress the diesel and diesel vapour making it explode and starting the engine.
Click to expand...
Diesel is only sprayed into the cylinder when the crankshaft is rotating, and it's normal practice to wait for the glow-plugs to heat the cylinder, then when cranked the diesel is sprayed into the air in the cylinder (not onto the glow plugs).
As Jon says, it's not semantics, fuel is burned (or combusted) in an internal combustion engine, same as fuel is burned (or combusted) in an external combustion engine (steam engine). The piston is moved down by pressure, the pressure comes from heat produced during a constant volume process, which is why all combustion engines are also called heat engines.

Glad it's all sorted anyway :)
 
freddofrog said:
Diesel is only sprayed into the cylinder when the crankshaft is rotating, and it's normal practice to wait for the glow-plugs to heat the cylinder, then when cranked the diesel is sprayed into the air in the cylinder (not onto the glow plugs).
As Jon says, it's not semantics, fuel is burned (or combusted) in an internal combustion engine, same as fuel is burned (or combusted) in an external combustion engine (steam engine). The piston is moved down by pressure, the pressure comes from heat produced during a constant volume process, which is why all combustion engines are also called heat engines.

Glad it's all sorted anyway :)
Click to expand...
No worries and thanks. I hope I didn't come across arsey, I wasn't trying to be.
 
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