The virtues of double wishbone suspension

[exec]

Also if anyones driven Audi's particularly the S Line models which come with some super stiff suspensions, they have very good bodyroll, but the actual handling is awful. They understeer like nobodys business, on the road you want a more compliant setup. So goodluckmonkey I do agree with you that damper settings can and do make a difference whatever the rest of the suspension setup is. But I do think DW offers much more options and control which has its advantages over others, on a standard car that can make a difference compared to other standard cars with different suspension design.

 

[Shuthan]

^ I have an Audi A4 Sport myself as a daily driver, I do agree body roll isn't too bad but I wouldn't push it at all, its not made for it and you can see it hasn't got the set up to cope.

 

[freddofrog]

The Accord has one of the strongest suspension components around. If your bushes and links are going constantly thats because your putting on cheap parts. OEM factory parts tend to last at least 100k in general use from what I have observed. My car is on 88k, apart from front shock, everything is still on original parts from 18 years ago, my brother in laws 7th gen which has 101k has just had an upper balljoint fail, everything else is stock, unfortunately due to cost went for a cheap Moog part which wont last anywhere near the length of the original part or equivalent quality OE.

Your car is also a tourer. which has a different setup to the saloon, it doesnt have the all round double wishbone, rear is a torsion bar from memory.

I bought my Accord in January 2006 when it was on 12k miles, first registered in September 2004.
MOT failure August 2007 32k miles ..........Offside Front Anti-roll bar linkage insecure (2.4.G.1)
MOT failure November 2009 66k miles .....Anti-roll bar linkage has excessive play in a ball joint (2.4.G.2)
MOT failure November 2010 80k miles .....Front Lower Suspension arm rubber bush deteriorated resulting in excessive movement (2.4.G.2)

Obviously those were OEM parts when they failed, in my experience the front suspension is too complex for a road car that's spent most of its life on the motorway

The tourers have a lateral link setup at the rear which gives the same kind of progression through the stroke as a double wishbone.

It's to try and maintain the geometry at different ride heights because you can load them with lots of stuff.

It's basically a trailing arm, main reason is to give more room in the boot on the Tourer.
There's been a couple of discussion on the weight differences between CM2 and CL9 in the past, and IIRC the kerb weights and max permissible weights (gross weight) is less than the difference between a thin woman and a fat bloke. This is because you shouldn't load the boot of an estate car with 5 people in it, above the rear seats, and 5 people plus a boot load of luggage is a lot of weight in either car.

WRC use McPherson because of the nature of the sport. They need longer travel and they need a simple design for ease of maintenance. Only rally car I can think of that used double wishbones was the Lancia 037. Some rally cars in their stock form use different setups, for example the Lancer Evo road car uses multi links, the rally car uses mchperson struts. This is what Mitsubishi have to say on the matter: "The car uses MacPherson strut suspension all round. It is a robust system and to make servicing straightforward, components are often interchangeable not only front and rear, but left to right as well. Most suspension components will be made of steel, to ensure reliability. "

The cars in WRC are based on the standard road cars these days (IIRC to stop the cars getting faster and faster thereby keeping deaths in WRC down) and they don't change the basic suspension i.e. the WRC winners using struts are fundamentally same as the cars bought by Jo Public. So if McPherson is good enough to win WRC then DW is too complex on that basis, and also in my experience of having an Accord for 11 years.

Most other race series such as Formula One and Touring cars all use double wishbones as its offers superior control. McPherson struts are archaic and basic compared, thats not to say they cant offer great handling when tuned properly.

As for why Honda use double wishbones, it was born out of their F1 development, they didn't just fit double wishbones on the Accord, they put them in every model, the Civic too, for a good part of two decades, it was trademark feature and the reason they used it is simply because it offers superior handling and ride combination compared to struts. Ask any engineer and they will pretty much say the same thing. Before I bought my Accord, I tried few other cars, the only other car that was as good as the Accord was the P11 Primera which has great multi link suspension, it had great handling and compliant ride.

But I bought my car to use on public roads to drive from A to B in the belief that Honda was a "sensible" and reliable make.


At the time I bought the CM2, I nearly bought a Legacy wagon, and often I wish I had. All I wanted was a reliable car that had a bit of "poke" on roads in the UK and the EU, could carry some house furniture at times, reasonable mpg, and didn't want anything that was too complex for all that, but it is.

 

[Goodluckmonkey]

The geometry of all these cars will be Good, no matter the setup, as that doesn t really effect price. It's the quality of components that's cheap.

The main reason a lot of cars designed for circuit racing have a double wishbone setup is so that they can have a push rod type suspension system with a crank that generates a rising rate at the shock absorber.

This is what helps generate the progression in the suspension, soft initially and harder later in the stroke. Thats where most of the performance comes from.

 

[exec]

I bought my Accord in January 2006 when it was on 12k miles, first registered in September 2004.
MOT failure August 2007 32k miles ..........Offside Front Anti-roll bar linkage insecure (2.4.G.1)
MOT failure November 2009 66k miles .....Anti-roll bar linkage has excessive play in a ball joint (2.4.G.2)
MOT failure November 2010 80k miles .....Front Lower Suspension arm rubber bush deteriorated resulting in excessive movement (2.4.G.2)

Obviously those were OEM parts when they failed, in my experience the front suspension is too complex for a road car that's spent most of its life on the motorway

Must have been the FreddoFrog effect! We've had Honda's in the family for decades and I don't remember once a suspension component failure or constant failures. When I was hunting an Accord for bro in law, when checking the MOT history most Accord had clean histories.

Double wishbones are complicated but no more complicated than any other multi link suspensions which have similar components attached to McPherson Struts. E46 3 series as an example, has notoriously weak suspension components. Unless you want to go back to ancient torsion bar systems and such like, most modern suspensions are of a multi link affair with ARBS, so ball joints and droplinks will be common maintenance item.

The cars in WRC are based on the standard road cars these days (IIRC to stop the cars getting faster and faster thereby keeping deaths in WRC down) and they don't change the basic suspension i.e. the WRC winners using struts are fundamentally same as the cars bought by Jo Public. So if McPherson is good enough to win WRC then DW is too complex on that basis, and also in my experience of having an Accord for 11 years.

I don't follow Rallying much these days, but I beleive Citroen, Peugeot etc dominate it currently, most of their road cars use struts, most rally cars as explained used struts because of the nature of rallying, you are driving fast on uneven bumpy surfaces, the cars are jumping and flying in mid air, they need to have the strongest dampers and the simplest setup for quick change, when a part fails, a strut can be changed in minutes as opposed to a DW setup.

But this is a particular extreme sport we are talking about here, much different to commuting on the road, where DW is completely fine, as said we've had Honda's in the family for decades, never had any issues.

But I bought my car to use on public roads to drive from A to B in the belief that Honda was a "sensible" and reliable make.


At the time I bought the CM2, I nearly bought a Legacy wagon, and often I wish I had. All I wanted was a reliable car that had a bit of "poke" on roads in the UK and the EU, could carry some house furniture at times, reasonable mpg, and didn't want anything that was too complex for all that, but it is.

Honda's are sensible and reliable, there also hi tech and sporty, if you want simple you buy a Ford or a Vauxhall.

The Subaru would have been as complex in its own manner, it has a boxer engine which awkward access and to work, AWD system that requires more maintenance, it also has double wishbones at the rear and I'm pretty sure the fronts are multi link mcpherson struts.

The suspension system doesn't necessitate durability of parts, that will be dictated by the quality of individual part, fitment and also how the car is used.

 

[exec]

The geometry of all these cars will be Good, no matter the setup, as that doesn t really effect price. It's the quality of components that's cheap.

The main reason a lot of cars designed for circuit racing have a double wishbone setup is so that they can have a push rod type suspension system with a crank that generates a rising rate at the shock absorber.

This is what helps generate the progression in the suspension, soft initially and harder later in the stroke. Thats where most of the performance comes from.

I wouldn't say the quality of components are cheap. It's somewhat relative. Having better spec damper will cost more money because of the design, material and technology.

The primary function of two arms is to help setup the camber, so I'm not sure the primary reason is due to damper type, that should be do-able in other multi link applications.

This is a good read:

n Motorsports the application of the double wishbone suspension set up, is the preferred system and this is used in F1 for example. This is partially because it allows the engineers more freedom to choose camber levels and roll centre settings. Which ultimately will affect the car's handling in certain situations and could affect lap times and the handling effectiveness of the vehicle.





Each wishbone (or A arm) has two mounting points to the car's chassis and one joint at the knuckle (ball joint connection), which is connected to the wheel hub. The shock absorbers and coil springs, mount to the wishbones to control vertical movement and are located inboard with pushrod and pullrod suspension designs (open wheel racing cars). Or can be located at the wheel hubs depending on the design specifications (closed wheel racing cars).
The main advantages of the double wishbone suspension set up is that it is reasonably easy to work out the effects of the moving joints. This allows engineers to easily tune the kinematic of the set up to optimise wheel motion. In Motorsports where a tenth of a second a lap can mean the difference between winning and losing, having a suspension set up which is easily adjustable, will yield greater performance for competitiveness.
Double wishbone suspension design is more effective in working out the loads that different parts of the suspension are subjected to, which could mean continued development and progression of lightweight parts especially in a racing environment. This could result in individual component evolution in stead of whole suspension revisions.
Double wishbone suspension provides increasing levels of negative camber, throughout the whole suspension motion including full jounce travel. Unlike the McPherson strut design which provides negative camber gains, only at the beginning of jounce travel and then reverses into a positive camber gains at high jounce level levels. Positive camber reduces tyre CF levels (coefficient of friction), decreasing cornering grip.
The Double Wishbone design has disadvantages as well, in that it is slightly more complex than other systems like a McPherson strut and will be more expensive to manufacture and produce. There will be the slight increase in weight, which can be offset with the use of composites. The suspension system will also need more precise tuning and configuration to yield the best performance gains. If you looking for the ultimate suspension design with the greatest performance, double wishbone suspension is the only choice.
http://www.rapid-racer.com/suspension.php#Double%20Wishbone.

 

[toffee_pie]

Must have been the FreddoFrog effect! We've had Honda's in the family for decades and I don't remember once a suspension component failure or constant failures. When I was hunting an Accord for bro in law, when checking the MOT history most Accord had clean histories.

Double wishbones are complicated but no more complicated than any other multi link suspensions which have similar components attached to McPherson Struts. E46 3 series as an example, has notoriously weak suspension components. Unless you want to go back to ancient torsion bar systems and such like, most modern suspensions are of a multi link affair with ARBS, so ball joints and droplinks will be common maintenance item.


I don't follow Rallying much these days, but I beleive Citroen, Peugeot etc dominate it currently, most of their road cars use struts, most rally cars as explained used struts because of the nature of rallying, you are driving fast on uneven bumpy surfaces, the cars are jumping and flying in mid air, they need to have the strongest dampers and the simplest setup for quick change, when a part fails, a strut can be changed in minutes as opposed to a DW setup.

But this is a particular extreme sport we are talking about here, much different to commuting on the road, where DW is completely fine, as said we've had Honda's in the family for decades, never had any issues.


Honda's are sensible and reliable, there also hi tech and sporty, if you want simple you buy a Ford or a Vauxhall.

The Subaru would have been as complex in its own manner, it has a boxer engine which awkward access and to work, AWD system that requires more maintenance, it also has double wishbones at the rear and I'm pretty sure the fronts are multi link mcpherson struts.

The suspension system doesn't necessitate durability of parts, that will be dictated by the quality of individual part, fitment and also how the car is used.

This is what i got from google on the Legacy suspension., no idea how complex this is but my car has passed 2 MOTs in a row with no advisories whatsoever, this is why i ditched the CL55.
I would say the Legacy is one of the best cars you could buy for a used car, pity the tax band on facelifts is the same as a Ferrari Enzo.

The 7h Gen Accord was pretty bad on stock suspension but on coils it was a different beast, stock suspension on most cars is pants.

Front suspension The depreciated rack Rear suspension
Helical spring

edit

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/subaru/legacy/first-drives/subaru-legacy-spec-b

"MacPherson strut front and multi-link rear suspension has been uprated with Bilstein dampers and STi-style inverted front struts"

 

[exec]

I would love a Legacy one day, Subaru's are second to Honda to me in terms of fave car brands, the Legacy is on my itch list. Looked into them back then, but they were pricey and maintenance put me off.

 

[exec]

Another good video on suspension setups.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGZRairqHNI

 

[freddofrog]

Must have been the FreddoFrog effect! We've had Honda's in the family for decades and I don't remember once a suspension component failure or constant failures. When I was hunting an Accord for bro in law, when checking the MOT history most Accord had clean histories.

Double wishbones are complicated but no more complicated than any other multi link suspensions which have similar components attached to McPherson Struts. E46 3 series as an example, has notoriously weak suspension components. Unless you want to go back to ancient torsion bar systems and such like, most modern suspensions are of a multi link affair with ARBS, so ball joints and droplinks will be common maintenance item.

LOL definitely not a freddofrog effect
You're actually showing your limited knowledge of the LCA on the front on the 7th and 8th gens.

7th gen

8th gen

sixth gen

It''s all very well trying to generally espouse the virtues of double wishbones, but if the engineering is poor, then the end user finds maintenance and setup very frustrating ....which it is on the 7th and 8th gens.

On 7th/8th gens the LCA is one-piece, and, the front bush is upside down, so if you drive along too many undulating roads the bush tears apart.
It's most probably an idea that Honda copied from Hyundai I think, it's just another Honda "off-the-shelf" or "copy from somewhere" idea --> http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/23260-so-how-much-of-your-accord-is-an-off-the-shelf-design/

The myth about Honda was one of the reasons why I bought my Accord in 2006, only to discover that the dealers are a rip-off and so I had to learn all about the car so as not keep being ripped off. If the Honda brand was that good, that shouldn't have happened. The myth is based on JD Power surveys, which looks at the first 3 years. After that, and definitely after 6 years, Honda's start to fall to bits unless you resort to DIY. I'll never buy a Honda again, but I will support all the poor beggers that have bought an Accord and are finding that they need to go up the learning curve just like I did. On that basis, I should have bought a Legacy wagon instead of a mid-00's Accord Tourer

I don't follow Rallying much these days, but I beleive Citroen, Peugeot etc dominate it currently, most of their road cars use struts, most rally cars as explained used struts because of the nature of rallying, you are driving fast on uneven bumpy surfaces, the cars are jumping and flying in mid air, they need to have the strongest dampers and the simplest setup for quick change, when a part fails, a strut can be changed in minutes as opposed to a DW setup.

But this is a particular extreme sport we are talking about here, much different to commuting on the road, where DW is completely fine, as said we've had Honda's in the family for decades, never had any issues.

But that is the very point that some of us are making, struts work fine in a harsh environment, they're easier to replace and set up ...QED

edit: as well as WRC, Honda haven't exactly shone in WTCC either --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Touring_Car_Championship#Champions

As for F1, I don't remember a Honda chassis plus Honda engine ever winning the championship in one year. Indeed, unless you count the chassis in the year that JB won in the Brawn, no Honda chassis ever won, but it was powered my a Merc engine (and it is said that they wouldn't have won with a Honda engine).

Honda's are sensible and reliable, there also hi tech and sporty, if you want simple you buy a Ford or a Vauxhall.

The Subaru would have been as complex in its own manner, it has a boxer engine which awkward access and to work, AWD system that requires more maintenance, it also has double wishbones at the rear and I'm pretty sure the fronts are multi link mcpherson struts.

The suspension system doesn't necessitate durability of parts, that will be dictated by the quality of individual part, fitment and also how the car is used.

Well that's part of the myth of branding isn't it ?
I've never considered Ford because of all the anti-Ford sentiment that exists in the UK, Ford seems to be like Marmite ....but next time I will consider them

I wouldn't say the quality of components are cheap. It's somewhat relative. Having better spec damper will cost more money because of the design, material and technology.

The primary function of two arms is to help setup the camber, so I'm not sure the primary reason is due to damper type, that should be do-able in other multi link applications.

this applies to struts too

This is what i got from google on the Legacy suspension., no idea how complex this is but my car has passed 2 MOTs in a row with no advisories whatsoever, this is why i ditched the CL55.
I would say the Legacy is one of the best cars you could buy for a used car, pity the tax band on facelifts is the same as a Ferrari Enzo.

The 7h Gen Accord was pretty bad on stock suspension but on coils it was a different beast, stock suspension on most cars is pants.

Front suspension The depreciated rack Rear suspension
Helical spring

edit

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/subaru/legacy/first-drives/subaru-legacy-spec-b

"MacPherson strut front and multi-link rear suspension has been uprated with Bilstein dampers and STi-style inverted front struts"

If it's like the Accord, they possibly used trailing arm on the rear on the estate ?

I'd consider a Legacy next myself, or a Ford, anything that still works properly after 6 years

 

[Jon_G]

I appreciate the ride and handling of my 7th gen Accord tourer, but the suspension is horribly complicated... far too much scope for wear to compromise the performance as the mileage racks up! In particular, I agree with Brian about the daft orientation of the lower front arms, it's almost designed to tear the front (compliance) bush.

 

[Goodluckmonkey]

The Subaru would have been as complex in its own manner, it has a boxer engine which awkward access and to work, AWD system that requires more maintenance, it also has double wishbones at the rear and I'm pretty sure the fronts are multi link mcpherson struts.

I bought my legacy back in 2011 with 51k on it, and sold it 4 years later at 126k

In that time all it had was front shocks, a drop link, a pair of front LCA bushes and track rod ends, and even then that's only because I'm really fussy.

The motor just had the usual service parts and the driveline was untouched.

Standard McPherson setup at the front, and a multi link rear.

The only time it ever let me down was on my wedding day. The battery went in the key fob.

Used to get 40k from a set of potenzas too because it was so good at laying down its power.

 

[exec]

I appreciate the ride and handling of my 7th gen Accord tourer, but the suspension is horribly complicated... far too much scope for wear to compromise the performance as the mileage racks up! In particular, I agree with Brian about the daft orientation of the lower front arms, it's almost designed to tear the front (compliance) bush.

You'll find the same with any car, naturally with mileage the suspension is going to wear out and need overhauling. This is true for any car, I'm not sure why the Accord is being singled out as being a unique case. They are actually more durable than most cars on the road and known for being so. Also if you think the Accord has complicated suspension, wait until you buy certain newer cars, they are even more complicated, I read somewhere the other day some of the modern Audi's have around 8 links and are ridiculously complicated and expensive and their suspensions are often made from cheese.

 

[freddofrog]

Now we're getting somewhere ...I'd really like to see a list of "recent" D-segment cars and the suspension they use


edit: but I do have to say that the Accord is the only car that I have ever owned that fails MOT on suspension issues

 

[exec]

LOL definitely not a freddofrog effect
You're actually showing your limited knowledge of the LCA on the front on the 7th and 8th gens.

7th gen

8th gen

sixth gen

It''s all very well trying to generally espouse the virtues of double wishbones, but if the engineering is poor, then the end user finds maintenance and setup very frustrating ....which it is on the 7th and 8th gens.

On 7th/8th gens the LCA is one-piece, and, the front bush is upside down, so if you drive along too many undulating roads the bush tears apart.
It's most probably an idea that Honda copied from Hyundai I think, it's just another Honda "off-the-shelf" or "copy from somewhere" idea --> http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/23260-so-how-much-of-your-accord-is-an-off-the-shelf-design/

The myth about Honda was one of the reasons why I bought my Accord in 2006, only to discover that the dealers are a rip-off and so I had to learn all about the car so as not keep being ripped off. If the Honda brand was that good, that shouldn't have happened. The myth is based on JD Power surveys, which looks at the first 3 years. After that, and definitely after 6 years, Honda's start to fall to bits unless you resort to DIY. I'll never buy a Honda again, but I will support all the poor beggers that have bought an Accord and are finding that they need to go up the learning curve just like I did. On that basis, I should have bought a Legacy wagon instead of a mid-00's Accord Tourer



But that is the very point that some of us are making, struts work fine in a harsh environment, they're easier to replace and set up ...QED

edit: as well as WRC, Honda haven't exactly shone in WTCC either --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Touring_Car_Championship#Champions

As for F1, I don't remember a Honda chassis plus Honda engine ever winning the championship in one year. Indeed, unless you count the chassis in the year that JB won in the Brawn, no Honda chassis ever won, but it was powered my a Merc engine (and it is said that they wouldn't have won with a Honda engine).


Well that's part of the myth of branding isn't it ?
I've never considered Ford because of all the anti-Ford sentiment that exists in the UK, Ford seems to be like Marmite ....but next time I will consider them


this applies to struts too



If it's like the Accord, they possibly used trailing arm on the rear on the estate ?

I'd consider a Legacy next myself, or a Ford, anything that still works properly after 6 years

Freddo you sound bitter and I probably sounding like a bit of a blind fanboy which is annoying you.

I know what the Accord suspensions look like, I have one, I didn't say they weren't complicated, just that they aren't any more complicated than a lot of other suspension setups out there. The cut out diagrams make it look mind boggling, most small parts are just bushes, but to me its no more complex than putting a large wardrobe together lol but I can accept to some others it will be complicated and annoying, if that is the case then you bought the wrong make of car, something more basic and unsophisticated like a Vauxhall would be a better choice.

Honda haven't copied anything from Hyundai lol, its the other way round, I have worked on Hyundai/Kias their engineering is copy of Japanese cars. Honda's double wishbone is inhouse engineering, it's somethig their engineers developed, if you knew a little about Honda and what they are about you would understand this. Their suspensions are all made by Showa, and they are not off the shelf products, they are made by Showa a third party company, but that isn't an 'off the shelf' part.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with your Honda, but one experience doesn't negate the reputation of the whole brand, it's a bit irrational to judge something in such manner, almost rmeinds me of my dad who has a bad view of Toyota's because he had a bad experience with a Camry many moons ago before he started buying Honda's.

As for struts, they can work in different environments, including on the road, thats not in question, BMW, Porsche use mcpherson struts in their sports car, you can tune them to good setting, but you have to add to them which also starts making them complicated...Double wishbones are inherently better for performance hence their application in many high end cars and use in motorsports.

Struts being used in rallying isn't a good example for an argument, they are used because they give certain advantage in that environment of which has been mentioned. However those certain requirements dont necessarily transfer onto the road. You are driving on tarmac in sensible conditions, not driving on rough terrains at 120mph and making big jumps over hills. It's not really comparable so the point isnt there.

Honda have never competed in WRC. They haven't had much success in WTCC, Germans tend to dominate, they have however had many success in BTCC. They use double wishbones there, so do I beleive every other manufacturer, I think it may be in the regulations to use double wishbones. See here: http://www.btcc.net/about/technical-overview/

As for Formula 1, Honda have won with McLaren several times, dominated entire seasons, they had input in the chassis too back then. They haven't had much success in recent times. Not sure what the point is though, Honda are not the only who use DW, everyone else use DW too!

Also I'm not so sure there an anti-Ford sentiment in the UK, they have been the most popular brand in the UK for decades, they are staple car brand in the UK. They make good cars, they are lovely to drive, I have driven the current generation Focus and Fiesta, whilst the Focus was a bit poor in the driving enjoyment, the Fiesta was an absolute joy, super handling and the 3 pot turbo was a lovely engine. Likewise the Mondeo's are nice cars, they handle very well, they use struts and I think multi link at the back, there suspension are weak though, so is in general reliability and durability. But it's your call if you want to try them. I would say try out a Subaru as your next car, something like the Outback, as the Legacy is no longer sold in the UK, the Avensis might be a worth a shot too, although Toyota quality hasnt been so great in the last decade.

 

[exec]

Now we're getting somewhere ...I'd really like to see a list of "recent" D-segment cars and the suspension they use


edit: but I do have to say that the Accord is the only car that I have ever owned that fails MOT on suspension issues

What do yours regularly fail at? Drop links and ball joints?

 

[freddofrog]

Re F!, Honda only had success with McLaren as supplier of the turbo engines. But those trubo engines only lasted one race and drank huge amounts of fuel. In those days, that was ok as far as the engine regs went, and note that Renault were the first to successfully introduce turbos into F1. My point is that Honda threw lots of money at shoving turbos onto engines in F1 and were successful, basically because it was easy to do back then and success in F1 = free advertising. Weird that Honda are struggling with something more complex LOL

What do yours regularly fail at? Drop links and ball joints?

Bushes, bushes, and bushes. OEM from the beginning (see #33). I've never had any other car fail on suspension before. And I'm not the only who can tell you of issues on the LCA, countless threads on drop links and LCA problems. I've also spoken to people at meets who are not on forums and have the same stories to tell.

It's more than disappointing, it's a sad fact that Honda engineering is a myth, based on JD Power surveys, which only look at the first 3 years and the pleasantries you get at the dealers. After 3 years, definitely after 6 years, other than dealer pleasantries, my experience with Honda is worse than my previous experience with Citroens.. Citroen DIY is easier, parts cheaper, I could go on.

Regarding Ford, there has always been a "marmite" thing about them, probably dating back to the 1930's. Same applies to German cars , I've never had one of those, not interested in them at all, no idea why. For me today, Jap cars, French cars, Ford/Vauxhall = all the same, but the problem with Jap cars is that parts are expensive and if I'm going to find that JD Power surveys mean nothing and that Jap cars are actually no better than French cars or Ford/Vauxhall then the conclusion is not to buy Jap cars ...although the Subaru's do have the better performance than this VTEC nonsense and I might be prepared to pay more for parts on something that has better performance.

 

[Channel Hopper]

Honda haven't copied anything from Hyundai lol, its the other way round, I have worked on Hyundai/Kias their engineering is copy of Japanese cars. Honda's double wishbone is inhouse engineering, it's somethig their engineers developed, if you knew a little about Honda and what they are about you would understand this. Their suspensions are all made by Showa, and they are not off the shelf products, they are made by Showa a third party company, but that isn't an 'off the shelf' part.

Showa are not the 'only' company supplying to Honda. Kayaba (now KYB) have their hat in the ring as an OEM supplier.

 

[Andyjdmteg]

Just to stir the pot as I'm enjoying this contentious thread
I've owned a total of 6 hondas and every one of them has needed bushes or dampers and such before hitting the 50k mark. When I worked for Honda I lost count of the low mileage cars coming in with customers moaning about steering/suspension issues.
Every one I've personally owned has been VERY fussy about the condition of suspension components, tire quality and alignment.
My current company car that I've just acquired from an ex-colleague, is a 15 plate Audi A4 estate (avant) 2 years old with nearly 70k on it and not a squeak rattle or bang to report. My previous Octavia also had no suspension issues.
Both my mk5 and mk6 golf gti's were sold at around 60k miles without issue.
Bmw e46 330 sold with 80k on the clock with just a pair of front lower bushes required.
Cl9 sitting in the garage has 79k on it and has needed nearly every bush replacing in the last 10k and is now in dire need of new dampers and possibly ball joints.

Don't get me wrong I love hondas and enjoy punting the old accord around from time to time but I think hondas strengths are with engines and gearboxes.

 

[freddofrog]

^ PMSL ...I'm off to Germany instead

 

[Andyjdmteg]

Even my old Vauxhall nova had over 70k on it when it was stolen by pikey's - on its original bushes lol

 

[exec]

Showa are not the 'only' company supplying to Honda. Kayaba (now KYB) have their hat in the ring as an OEM supplier.

I know, I have KYB excel G shocks on my fronts. Showa are the main suppliers however for Honda since they first started making cars and were the primary suppliers during the double wishbone era. I am not sure about their recent cars as I haven't inspected any yet, I would imagine they have more suppliers as they use different styles of systems now.

They also switched to McPherson struts at the front on the 9th gen Accord.

 

[exec]

Even my old Vauxhall nova had over 70k on it when it was stolen by pikey's - on its original bushes lol

I have a 18 year old Accord with 88k on the clock, still on all original suspension parts bar the front shocks.

Brother in law recently bought a 7th gen with 101k on the clock, all on original suspension, the driver side upper ball joint has failed just now which I will be changing this weekend.

Not sure what your point is.

 

[Shuthan]

I am not sure where the bushes wearing quickly on Hondas has come from.... I have had 6 Hondas and can't say I had any issue with bushes when it comes to MOT.

My ATR had its original bushes changed at 130K abouts and it was 16 years old at the time, which I thought was great and this is a performance car as well. The suspension also has a fair bit of mileage on them too and they are fine.

 

[exec]

Just to stir the pot as I'm enjoying this contentious thread
I've owned a total of 6 hondas and every one of them has needed bushes or dampers and such before hitting the 50k mark. When I worked for Honda I lost count of the low mileage cars coming in with customers moaning about steering/suspension issues.
Every one I've personally owned has been VERY fussy about the condition of suspension components, tire quality and alignment.
My current company car that I've just acquired from an ex-colleague, is a 15 plate Audi A4 estate (avant) 2 years old with nearly 70k on it and not a squeak rattle or bang to report. My previous Octavia also had no suspension issues.
Both my mk5 and mk6 golf gti's were sold at around 60k miles without issue.
Bmw e46 330 sold with 80k on the clock with just a pair of front lower bushes required.
Cl9 sitting in the garage has 79k on it and has needed nearly every bush replacing in the last 10k and is now in dire need of new dampers and possibly ball joints.

Don't get me wrong I love hondas and enjoy punting the old accord around from time to time but I think hondas strengths are with engines and gearboxes.

and I have a million anecdotes of Audi's VW's and BMW's with constantly failing suspensions. Things that never break on other cars break on cars like Audi's, even solid metal bits like the arm crack and fail on Audi's. one generation of Ford Fiesta's has a common problem of springs snapping randomly and prematurely.

I've never heard of anyone claim Honda's have weak suspensions, you speak mechanics they even say the opposite.

Even rated here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8971283/Best-cars-for-dealing-with-potholes.html

 

[Shuthan]

and I have a million anecdotes of Audi's VW's and BMW's with constantly failing suspensions. Things that never break on other cars break on cars like Audi's, even solid metal bits like the arm crack and fail on Audi's. one generation of Ford Fiesta's has a common problem of springs snapping randomly and prematurely.

My Audi drives me insane sometimes, it has alot of niggles and I am scared for its MOT come August lol....

 

[exec]

I am not sure where the bushes wearing quickly on Hondas has come from.... I have had 6 Hondas and can't say I had any issue with bushes when it comes to MOT.

My ATR had its original bushes changed at 130K abouts and it was 16 years old at the time, which I thought was great and this is a performance car as well. The suspension also has a fair bit of mileage on them too and they are fine.

Same here, we have had several Honda's in the family over decades and never has once failed on its suspensions. I've been around Honda's for near my lifetime and never come across such claims made here. It seems that people who have had single bad experiences with Honda's are projecting it onto every Honda.

Not sure why my simple thread on double wishbone suspension has created so much venom towards Honda...

 

[Shuthan]

Its a Honda forum, a resource for people to let their fingers lose

But in all seriousness, The cars bought by members probably had a hard life beforehand?

 

[Channel Hopper]

I am not sure where the bushes wearing quickly on Hondas has come from.... I have had 6 Hondas and can't say I had any issue with bushes when it comes to MOT.

My ATR had its original bushes changed at 130K abouts and it was 16 years old at the time, which I thought was great and this is a performance car as well. The suspension also has a fair bit of mileage on them too and they are fine.

Likewise, mine is at 15Xk feels / rides OK and the MOT confirmed nothing amiss. I'm more concerned about the intermittent fuelling anomalies which might be battery related.

 

[freddofrog]

I have a 18 year old Accord with 88k on the clock, still on all original suspension parts bar the front shocks.

Brother in law recently bought a 7th gen with 101k on the clock, all on original suspension, the driver side upper ball joint has failed just now which I will be changing this weekend.

Not sure what your point is.

read his previous post --> http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/23692-the-virtues-of-double-wishbone-suspension/?p=246653

I am not sure where the bushes wearing quickly on Hondas has come from.... I have had 6 Hondas and can't say I had any issue with bushes when it comes to MOT.

My ATR had its original bushes changed at 130K abouts and it was 16 years old at the time, which I thought was great and this is a performance car as well. The suspension also has a fair bit of mileage on them too and they are fine.

see this --> http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/23692-the-virtues-of-double-wishbone-suspension/?p=246604

Same here, we have had several Honda's in the family over decades and never has once failed on its suspensions. I've been around Honda's for near my lifetime and never come across such claims made here. It seems that people who have had single bad experiences with Honda's are projecting it onto every Honda.

Not sure why my simple thread on double wishbone suspension has created so much venom towards Honda...

it's not venom, it's just that double wishbone is ok on paper and for racing cars that don't have to last more than one race before being rebuilt, but the practicalities on road cars destroy any virtues you may say, which the 7th gen proves, and the more I think about the front suspension on my Accord, the more annoyed I get about the myth of "Honda reliability"

Its a Honda forum, a resource for people to let their fingers lose

But in all seriousness, The cars bought by members probably had a hard life beforehand?

see this --> http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/23692-the-virtues-of-double-wishbone-suspension/?p=246595