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6th Gen. Whats this bracket/pipe?

AndyB1976

AndyB1976

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Location
Glasgow
Car
2002 F18B2 CG8
My car has been running like a dog after getting the fuel pipes done at Honda (OEM), hesitating and ultimately cutting out. Now it was also due a service, which I have since done with OEM NGK plugs and OEM Air Filter but still the hesitation exists. I am currently investigating a few things, namely mechanical integrity (compression), and ignition system (HT Leads, distributor cap) then onto EGR and timing.

Whilst in the engine bay I thought something looked out of place. Now this could just because I've been looking around the pipes and lines whereas before I've never really paid much attention.

So this is what I want to know if you have this in your 6th Gen. I took a photo before showing the return valve for someone else about 6mths ago, so the angle of the before image isn't great but its near enough. Two after pics contain a black bracket with something that looks like an open ended pipe.

I'll list these images in reverse order so you can see what is there now but seemingly wasn't before.

EvapCanAfter-zoom_tn1_zpsc1dbc589.jpg


EvapCanAfter1_tn1_zps51054d8a.jpg


EvapCanPrevious_tn1_zps147098ee.jpg
 
Just taken a pick of my engine bay, will upload it in an hour or 2 when i get home from work.
 
20140224_143600.jpg


here we are mate.
 
Nice one Dale, panic over ;) .

I had previous experience with Arnold Clark up here when I first started driving, put my Cavalier in for a service came out and it was misfiring all over the place. Eventually made it to work and they hadn't connected up the air snorkel to the throttle body so gawd knows what air volume it was measuring.

Honda haven't let me down yet unlike Arnold Clark so I guess a result of sorts ;-)
.
 
Interesting, I wonder what it is then? Some sort of pipe stop? Gonna check mine tomorrow to see if it has one.

I wonder why you didn't have it before then, or maybe you did but it was located somewhere else?
 
I know...I usually always pay attention around the engine but for some reason this stood out.

I was looking down at the new brake pipes coming in, you can see in the first pic, the tail end of the arrow is pointing at the new pipes with the black tape on them, connecting to a little junction box. So from that junction box, the pipes run under a channel, inside a tray under the passenger side and then split just around the rear subframe onward to the wheel arch and brake hose. Just for your info ;-)

Well I tried to measure the resistance on HTLead 4 but couldn't understand the Ohm scale on the meter, confusing me, what a dimwit lol. It should read no more than 25k ohms at 20°C but mine was reading 6.5 on one of the Ohm scales, but probably was closer to 5-10°C of course. Gonna have to look at that pesky EGR port now, last time I tried the pipe and hose connection was tight so I didn't force it.
 
good man keeping a 6th gen alive, forgive me but did i miss something m8y is your car still running rough i take it?
 
Yeah, I might have overstated the roughness of it but since getting the pipes done on 3rd week in Jan, I felt a little bit of hesitation a week or so later. I felt some more and one night it cut out; just like a stall, following hesitation.

It was due a service, so popped the new NGK plugs torqued to spec and OEM air-filter in but noticed a little hesitation. Its appears random, if only at lowish speeds say around 20-30mph.

Plug 4 was carbon fouled and unique amongst the other three although they look like there is some overheating going on there. I got some much appreciated advice on the other board so I'm going to leakdown the cylinders, check the distributor points and rotor and the condition of the EGR system and eventually the timing if the former check out ok.

IMG_3026r_zpseca58ce0.jpg


IMG_3027r_zps28d7d76b.jpg
 
Regarding the hesitation, have you checked the valve clearence?

About that pipe, will see if mine has ine ;)
 
Hey Pedro..

Yeah done them last year, but I will be rechecking them again. Just waiting on air line couplers for my LeakDown Tester, then I'll be able to check for any unwanted leaks either through the valves, head gasket or piston rings.

Got the EGR fuel pipe/hose separated at last, 10mm open ended spanner on the hose to help twist it and 8mm over the pipe to push back the hose. Had to abandon due to rain but with photograph and Howto it in the coming weeks.
 
^ Nice one Andy.

I checked mine, F20B has that thing aswell, not that it matters anymore.

Do you get any idling issues with the revs?

Seems a bit of a coincidence that it all started after the fuel lines changed. Perhaps they damaged one of the injectors? and vacuum leaks anywhere?
 
No the car idles fine, and 90-95% of the time runs well. But there has been a few isolated incidents where its gone bad.

Its like when a learner driver kangaroo's the car on a lesson and then drives off ok. Thats what it looks like from a bystanders point of view, although its not as extreme but as the driver you can certainly feel it, and once it cut out completely and took 20secs or so to restart.

I put a vid in the DIY section of the injectors, the solenoids sound ok, well at least they sound the same as each other but doesn't mean one isn't leaking.
 
Guys just to update this thread and hopefully finish it off for good.

I continued investigating this hesitation issue which only appeared shortly after my MOT, which required fuel lines - OEM and fitted by Honda. I'll try and summarise what happened, what checks I carried out and what ultimately happened.

14th Jan
MOT fail on fuel pipes and advisory on rear brake pipes

21st Jan
All new lines to rear of car replaced with OEM fuel and copper brake at Honda dealer.

Jan-Feb
Hesitation happening for first time in cars history, getting worse, now starting to cut out.

Checked fuels lines (work just done, obvious place to look first) that were exposed, ie didn't hunt under the car or tray, just at fuel filter and engine bay - no obvious leaks

Sparks due to for change, pulled and investigated - evidence of carbon deposits and overheating
IMG_3026r_zpseca58ce0.jpg

Sparks replacement NGKs and new OEM air filter replaced too

Car still hesitating and cutting out

Feb

Leakdown test carried out to look for compression failure, some loss but acceptable for age of car and engine not fully warmed up

Cylinder4_tn1_zps95a2edfe.jpg



Video listens for air out the intake valves(throttle), radiator (head gasket), dipstick (piston rings/cylinder), exhaust valves (exhaust pipe) - not videoed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zC9NqCv1FY

cont
 
As cylinder one will be at TDC on CAM, then lets check the CRANK is set accordingly

Cylinder1TDC_tn1_zps750b35a8.jpg


Cylinder1TDCtimingMark_tn1_zps50f942ae.jpg


Debated with Honda on this one with no resolve, They claim that the timing is within Honda tolerances, I argue that the mark and sight akin to a rifle sight wouldn't be so precise if the crank marker could be within range at its current location. They disagreed and that was that, nothing was offered or suggested.

Injector solenoid check,
seems to be pinging ok or at least all four sound similar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyInI-tKUyk

cont
 
HT Lead, Distributor Cap and Rotor inspection

CapLeads_zps9264240f.jpg


DPoints_zpsffd6ae02.jpg
rotor_zps77e80724.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzgIJ49gCVs
 
..and finally the cause of the problem

FUEL LEAK

some old patches on the ground (not so obvious at the time as old cars, poorly maintained cars can leak fluids) but as they lined up during the main leak it was obvious to an intermittent leak. Ingnore the excess wash, that was me rinsing away the excess spill before I got the drip tray underneath.

IMAG0780_zpsd88a1d00.jpg


IMAG0779_zpsd67f7924.jpg


IMAG0781_zps2d8663ef.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkSkw-wNWkk


Now Honda claim to have no idea what happened and it never left their premises like that. I didn't disagree, its not like they WOULD send that out. I asked where the leak was coming from, firstly they weren't sure (me:what?) then they said it was around the cannister (just happens a new jubilee clip has appeared since the car was returned). When the leak began I looked all around the engine bay and nothing was leaking from the top-end at all. If I could have identified it I would have stopped it or clamped it in some way. The cannister, supposed approximate source of the leaking looks rather dusty to me, not drenched in petroleum as I would expect to see it.
IMAG0787_zpsd450191a.jpg


So thats it guys, a long saga comes to an end ( I hope)

This problem had me investigating and replacing stuff I'd never have otherwise went near so you could say I learned a fair bit from all the advice I received and what I undertook myself. I've got most of the photography done so hopefully some guides can come out if this.

Honda, well not happy at all with them. The leaking lines cause wasn't really comprehensively agreed and the timing marks from a job they had done on the timing belt service wasn't agreed either, infact it was denied you could say.

I paid £400 for the timing belt service (and they charged me for 3 belts 2xtiming 1xbalance) and £500 for the fuel and brake pipes. So £900 on the last two jobs and I think they screwed them both up. Why pay top dollar at a main dealer for the big jobs for them to F*** it up.

Cheers for reading guys and your input on the related threads much appreciated ;)
 
Me again lol your not having much luck buddy, stealers buggering up is all to common that's why I'm stacked with work :) Anyway besides your leak in video i noticed you have extensive corrosion underneath which is sign the outer floor skin drainage holes are blocked, I would get this welded ASAP buddy, surprised nobody advised this before you started spending on other things?
 
Cheers man...wasn't sure how bad that was. I'll do some further investigation.
 
Whats the best way to keep these unblocked, compressed air down/up the channel?
 
AndyB1976 said:
Whats the best way to keep these unblocked, compressed air down/up the channel?
Click to expand...
hi m8y from the looks of it, you may be to late for that :unsure: i would take all the caps off and flush it out with alcohol solution, but compressed air would be ok ;)

Also it should be part of Honda dealer corrosion checks and I've made a few claims against Honda on behalf of customers (under the anti-corrosion policy) When i purchased my type v it needed welding in the same places as yours and luckily i had year left on the bodywork and they sorted it for free. The car came from Scotland and they didn't even quiz me about it, shame your car missed out fella :(
 
Glad you got it sorted in the end, what dealer did you get to do the work as I will make a point to avoid them.

I have been taking my cars to Automek in East Killbride for the last coulpe of years and their rates are very good plus the owner Andy Baird specialises in Honda's.
 
Glad you got it sorted mate, i noticed you cleaned the EGR plate, how easy is this to do on the 1.8 ?? i think i saw a guide on here for the H22 but obviously its different doing it to our engines. Dying to try it but i keep bottling it. :(
 
Forgot about this, very interesting to see it was leaky fuel pipes, dodgy workmanship!? What does that canister do? Good to see its sorted though and I ***ume the dealer did not charge you for the repair, well i hope not!

An EGR guide would be cool, need to to the VC's on mine too *hint* :p i get worried at taking the injectors out a sthey are fragile.
 
I was a bit unwilling to name the dealer as I was awaiting a credit for the extra timing belt they charged me for, however as its still not showed and I've not heard from them, the dealer was Parks Honda at Hamilton ML3 0AY (just for clarity :angry: ).

The photography for the EGR is done, so I will start putting together the guide. I'll be honest it was a bit of an awkward job for me, not a lot of room to move, fuel spillage from the rail, the rail was tough to get out and injectors were tough to get out the rail. Some nuts are tight access requiring an open ended spanner, and that awkward vac/fuel hose/pipe thingy. I reckon it took me about 2 hours but in some ways I was finding my way as I went, nonetheless allow for 2 hours because you don't want to force a fuel line or break an injector. I think you need to remove 7 loom plugs (once each on each injector) and three others, the loom also gets in the way. I'm glad its a one-off job, can't see me repeating this as a maintenance item again.

I wouldn't say the injectors were fragile in your hand as such, they feel quite a robust little unit but that doesn't mean you want to drop them or manhandle them out or into the rail.

As I understand it, the Canister is filled with charcoal and it acts as a catch for petrol vapours. A managed vacuum is used to draw the vapours out into the intake or fuel rail (I'd need to trace that hose and see where it goes) There should be no liquid fuel in there as I understand particularly after reading honda-tech, therefore it should never leak. Two hoses enter/leave the canister at the top on our car- in the previous image you can see the canister is still dusty, petrol pouring from the above hoses would have been evident on the body of the canister.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/evaporative-emission-control-system1.htm

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2899535
 
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