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Facelift ECU in pre-facelift?

I've answered question 1 myself, because the Lings Honda website allows VIN entries.

VIN is made up of:
3 characters for Brand and country where made: mine is JHM (Japan Honda)
3 character Type number: mine is CM2 (Accord Tourer)
2 digits for trim level: mine is 78
1 digit "check digit": mine is 0
1 character/digit for the year it was made: mine is 3 (although my reg plate is 54)
1 character for the factory: mine is C
6 digit serial number: I found that the Lings Honda website accepts serial numbers from 200001 to 999999

Here is where to enter the VIN on Lings

To check the ECU part numbers for each year, I entered

JHMCM27803C200001 & JHMCM27803C999999 = 2003
JHMCM27804C200001 & JHMCM27804C999999 = 2004
JHMCM27805C200001 & JHMCM27805C999999 = 2005
JHMCM27806C200001 & JHMCM27806C999999 = 2006
JHMCM27807C200001 & JHMCM27807C999999 = 2007
JHMCM27808C200001 & JHMCM27808C999999 = 2008

btw Lings will not take that VIN combination with 2002, or with 2009 onwards (2010 is A in a VIN, etc)


Note that the following is for CM2 (Tourer), I've no idea if it's the same for CL9.

The ECU part numbers for each year are

2003/2004 ............37820-RBG-305
2005 .......................37851-RBB-000
2006/2007/2008 ....37820-RBG-E05

This means that three different ECU's are used in the K24 CM2 (Tourer) from 2003 to 2008.

Which bears out what Fahad said !!!!!

I might check the engine parts for CM2 2004. 2005, 2006 on Lings to see if there's any major differences to bear out if a 2006 ECU will be a straight swap into 2004 .....but then again I've got a life :lol: :lol:

But as Fahad said, it might be worth just getting a 2005 or 2006 ECU (with key) and seeing if it works.
 
I just did CL9 the same way (thanks to Eric for CL9's first 11 VIN chracters)

JHMCL95903C200001 & JHMCL95903C999999 = 2003
JHMCL95904C200001 & JHMCL95904C999999 = 2004
JHMCL95905C200001 & JHMCL95905C999999 = 2005
JHMCL95906C200001 & JHMCL95906C999999 = 2006
JHMCL95907C200001 & JHMCL95907C999999 = 2007
JHMCL95908C200001 & JHMCL95908C999999 = 2008

Note that the following is for CL9 (Saloon)

The ECU part numbers for each year are

2003/2004 ............37820-RBB-307
2005 .......................37820-RBB-E04
2006/2007/2008 ....37820-RBB-E06

So again three different ECU's are used in the K24 CL9 (Saloon) from 2003 to 2008, and their part numbers are different from CM2 (Tourer)
 
Good work Brian. So does this mean the CM2 has a different ECU to the CL9 as the part numbers are different? If so, does this mean the remaps designed for the CL9s simply won't work as they chip ***embly etc is different? If so, wouldn't all of the above discussion be irrelevant? Because I don't know of anyone running a remapped 2.4 tourer full stop and maybe that's because it needs a different map and no-one's developed one. I was just ***uming the saloon and tourer would have the same ECU setups and maps?

Should I take mine out and photo it? See if it's like the above picture F6had has posted? Also, on LINGS it says in brackets "Rewritable" next to the ECU. Does that mean it is literally rewritable in terms of remapping or does that simply apply to key coding?

Sorry if my questions sound naive and/or ignorant, but I just don't know anything about this side of things and Google's turning up very little on K24A3 mapping other than what's been discussed before about TSX ECUs.
 
^^ 2.4's have been mapped mate, Gunther at XO has done Alnug's and Dave at Elite (who is my engineer also) has done some for overseas members.

The process of tuning is the same as the K20 Civic and K24 Accord 8th gen solutions we've developed:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Premier-Tuning/148037185267257#!/media/set/?set=a.394041300666843.91189.148037185267257&type=1

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Premier-Tuning/148037185267257#!/media/set/?set=a.383736011697372.88559.148037185267257&type=3

Like I said before, I am not saying I'm 100% right - I'm just telling you guys what I've been told when we tried to work on my brothers early K24.. It's possible Piasini have developed something else since we last spoke to them about this. To be fair, we tend to focus on the newer stuff anyway and a lot of my time is spent woking on relatively new cars these days needing DPF's removing so it's not something I've had a lot of time to go and investigate.

Where there's a will, there's a way and if someone is really persistent in wanting to find a solution - I'm sure they will. That might be tuning the stock ECU or fitting a 2005 onwards ECU.
 
That's cool F6had. But do you see my point about the CM2 having a different ECU part number to the CL9 of the same age? Does this mean the ECU is potentially a different circuit configuration and therefore nobody's yet to map it as there's not really much demand?

Oh, and just out of curiosity, ***uming a more modern ECU would work in my car, if I got a more up to date ECU, got it coded to my car and sent it to you in the post, could you map it and send it back (for a fee obviously) ;) .
 
Stevearcade said:
Should I take mine out and photo it? See if it's like the above picture F6had has posted?
Click to expand...
If you're up for it, yes. Never taken mine out yet, if you can take some pics showing how you got it out, would be nice too.


Stevearcade said:
Also, on LINGS it says in brackets "Rewritable" next to the ECU. Does that mean it is literally rewritable in terms of remapping or does that simply apply to key coding?
Click to expand...
Yeah I noticed that, but didn't want to add more mystery to this thread. But it is a valid question.


F6HAD said:
Like I said before, I am not saying I'm 100% right - I'm just telling you guys what I've been told when we tried to work on my brothers early K24.. It's possible Piasini have developed something else since we last spoke to them about this. To be fair, we tend to focus on the newer stuff anyway ..... it's not something I've had a lot of time to go and investigate.

... if someone is really persistent in wanting to find a solution - I'm sure they will. That might be tuning the stock ECU or fitting a 2005 onwards ECU.
Click to expand...
Makes perfect sense.


Stevearcade said:
That's cool F6had. But do you see my point about the CM2 having a different ECU part number to the CL9 of the same age? Does this mean the ECU is potentially a different circuit configuration and therefore nobody's yet to map it as there's not really much demand?
Click to expand...
I doubt 99.9% that there are "different circuit configs" between CM2 and CL9, just different maps. If you buy a stock ECU, it would come with the map, hence the different part numbers. The drag profile and weight of an estate is different from a saloon, so will have a different map.

Not only is this true for part numbers between CM2 and CL9, it's probably IMO 90% true across all the ECU part numbers i.e. if the engine sensors and actuators and harness are electrically the same over the years then any of the ECU's should operate the engine. The circuitry inside the ECU might be updated, and stock maps will be different, but in all probability they should work the engine. However, I wouldn't like to guess what will happen when comms to other systems in the car finds those systems different or absent.


Stevearcade said:
Oh, and just out of curiosity, ***uming a more modern ECU would work in my car, if I got a more up to date ECU, got it coded to my car and sent it to you in the post, could you map it and send it back (for a fee obviously) ;) .
Click to expand...
If you get that done, me too please ;)
 
I also don't think the tourer and saloon have different ECU's, and agree the different part numbers probably just refer to the maps. Tourer and Saloons run differnet load characteristics which are part of the ECU logic for fuelling etc.

Steve - yes of course, we offer a postal service today which is how we do a lot of the Honda ECU's. Ensuring the ECU works with your car is your responsiblity really mate..
 
And removing the ECU in the CL9 is easy really. It's located down in the footwell, between the passenger and driver side. It's held in with 10mm bolts on either side mounted into the floor. You'll need to remove the plastic trim on each side first to get to the bolts - there's a little triangular cut out on both sides which you can remove to get to the bolts.

Took me 10 mins to remove.

Remember to disconnected the battery first and don't force anything, it should come out nice and easy.
 
Personally I''ll stay away from any other software than Hondata .
I do not trust software companies who claim they can map everything (every brand, every model) - I don't think they have the resources (human, cars, etc...) to develop software for each.
And for instant Piasini claim 17 hp increase in hp for k24 ... really ???!! That's way too much over Hondata's gain without any mods.
Also, they don't tell how will they give you so much hp... you don't see a dyno or anything.
For instant Hondata will tell you exactly what they did (lowered vtec point, increase red line limit, etc...and at the top is very little gain without any mods,
the most gain is made on the mid range by lowering the vtec point )
And Piasini (which I'm 100% they don't know a Honda engine better than Hondata) claim 17hp at the top ... ? :)

And speaking about Piasini, a friend of mine has a Euro CL7 (155 hp) - he has full exhaust , including high flow cat and headers, intake, and pulleys - he got 177hp on the dyno with stock ECU.
Then he decided to get a software update from Piasini. He did the dyno after, and he got almost identical dyno +-1hp/tq against all rpm range ...
 
Not looking for massive gains in HP if I'm honest. The K24 is pushing near 190bhp stock anyway. It's fine as it is. What I'm interested in is getting more power and torque at lower revs, redistributing and evening out the power band to make the engine a little more sporty feeling. Also, lowering the VTEC engagement a little and raising the redline a little to give me a more meaningful VTEC window. Check out the reviews of the 2.4 maps done by Gunther at XO and F6had at Premier. This is precisely what they focus on and in my view the correct way to map what is a pretty meaty engine at stock. It's not simply about power increase. That's not my priority here and I know it's not Gunther's or F6had's either. And I believe in both instances pre and post dyno runs are part of the service so you can see for yourself the redistribution of power and overall subtle power and torque gains from the map.
 
dinoc said:
I do not trust software companies who claim they can map everything (every brand, every model) - I don't think they have the resources (human, cars, etc...) to develop software for each.
Click to expand...

Yeah I think Ptolemy also had a formula to predict the motion of the stars based on the fact that the earth was at the centre of the universe.

.
 
If they are doing what Hondata does, that's fine but I'll be very skeptical about bold statement like 17hp at the top without any mods (like Piasini claim) ...
check first what Hondata can do for the TSX , if is closed to that that might be fine but anything more optimistic I'll be very skeptical ... my 2 cents ... and I'll do a dyno before and after .

With stock parts and Hondata reflash on my previous type-r got very little gain in hp at the top , the bigest gain was on the mid range by lowering vtec point.
Later after investing a lot of cash I've got 239hp (got full Toda exhaust, Toda headers, DC5 cams, RRC , Gruppe-M intake, remap using Hondata Flashpro , and others ... the biggest gain was on the mid range) so I do know that is very hard to extract hp from a Honda engine without mods and a lot of investments ...
And that's why I like Hondata, they don't claim unrealistic gains ...

PS> and I was referring to N/A petrol engines , only
 
The point is that Steve (and myself included) simply want what he desribes at the top of this page.

"What I'm interested in is getting more power and torque at lower revs, redistributing and evening out the power band to make the engine a little more sporty feeling. Also, lowering the VTEC engagement a little and raising the redline a little to give me a more meaningful VTEC window"

As he says, Gunther (XO power) and Fahad (Premier tuning) are known to have done this on K24 ECU's from 2005 onwards. See my post in this thread where I spent a bit of time looking at ECU part numbers to verify that pre-2005 ECU's in CM2 and CL9 have different part numbers.

All that Steve wants to know, is
1. has a pre-2005 K24 ECU ever been remapped
2. if not 1, then can it be done
3. if not 2, then can a later K24 ECU be remapped and used in a pre-2005 CM2/CL9

Finally, I rang CPL a year ago (Hondata reps in the UK) and they said that Hondata cannot be used with K24 without piggy-backing and extensive wiring.
 
There was a time when CPL managed to source Hondata reflash ECUs from Hondata USA for our euro CL9.
Myself bought one from CPL for a friend of mine (he has a CL9, too) - and is running fine for more than 3 years. It was an unofficial Hondata reflash for our euro CL9. (Back than I had a Type-R.)
Later when I've bought a CL9 I wanted to buy a similar ECU from CPL (again) but this time I've received a negative answer from CPL (actually they did receive a negative answer from Hondata USA teling them as they don't offer these kind of ECU anymore (Doug who was doing this , apparently he''s to busy or other s****) ) . And that's sad as I have no choice now unless I'll go to the expensive route (buy a TSX ECU and then a FlashPro) .
Maybe you guys know better CPL, maybe you can convince them to talk with Hondata USA again for ECU reflash for our CL9 , if we can gather enough people (we can make a list) .... just an idea.
 
/\ that's the problem :D

Steve or I don't want to spend a lot of time or money on this, just get our pre-2005 K24 ECUs remapped the same way that post-2005 K24 ECU's have been.

One other point though .... in theory it should be possible to increase top end HP by ~17 HP simply by moving the rev limit, provided that the torque does not drop off. I have read in this forum (either Gunther or Fahad said it) that the stock parts on the K24 have sufficient breathing to allow the rev limit to be raised from 7200 to 7800 without a drop in torque.

So, 7800 - 7200 = 600, and 600 / 7200 = ~8%, and 8% x 190 HP = 15 HP.

EDIT: but note that we don't want a paltry 15 HP, we want more torque lower down, and as he says, a longer stride in VTEC, along with a slightly higher rev limit.
 
:)
look here , http://www.hondata.com/reflash.html (they raised rev limit to 7600) check for TSX reflash see the peak gain (2-4 hp only)
you won't get top gains like 17hp (with no mods , even by rising the rev limiter to the sky limit :) ) without big hardware investments (headers, exhaust , intake)
 
Dinoc mate, I appreciate your points, but you're missing the point of this thread, the general flow of the conversation and the issues actually being addressed. You've cluttered up the best part of a page concerned with 17hp gains and putting down anyone that isn't Hondata when that's not what this thread is about.

Please don't lead this off-topic and away from point. It makes it harder for a thread to keep people's attention and stay relevant to the original question: Can a pre 2005 ECU be mapped, if not can I swap it for a post 2005 ECU and all work ok?

No hard feelings mate, I just wanna keep the thread focussed so we can try and get to the bottom of the issue, not to have it diverge into an argument about the credibility of tuners other than Hondata.

:)
 
Back on track:

F6had mate, I'll pop out the ECU tomorrow as I have some free time. Will photo and upload to get your opinion. :)
 
Yes you're right, sorry about that ( if a mod can delete my previous posts if possible, thanks)
And I think you won't find the answer until someone really try an ECU from a newer model ( I know there are some differences like DBW, VSA, ..)
 
Dinu, I know you've got some experience in having Honda's tuned in the past. Sorry to burst your bubble but Hondata is not the default answer to Honda tuning. For a start they don't tune the stock maps, they use a complex set of signal multipliers outside traditional map areas to make the power. It's a very clever system but it isn't actually re-writing the stock map tables.

Using the Piasini or Alientech tools, we download the stock maps and actually re-write those map tables. You make a lot of different points in your threads, and you are right to be sceptical.. but we've done a lot of our in house testing using Flashpro and KPro's and we always make much better power and better overall maps using the stock ECU tuning method. Flashpro for example with the FN2 K20 Civic gives various issues with cruise control when you lower the Vtec window.. again this is down to vtec window being lowered through manipulation rather than actually re-writing of the parameters. When we lower the vtec window, the car behaves exactly as you would expect it to with zero side effects..

I think you should keep an open mind, the answers are not always in one place. Hondata is fine for the average DIY enthusiast. For professional tuning, you always need to work with the stock maps to ensure you have a complete and consistent tune across all tables.

Steve - sure, take a pic of the inside, the lid comes off (just 4 or 5 posi screws holding it on)
 
F6HAD said:
Using the Piasini or Alientech tools, we download the stock maps and actually re-write those map tables. You make a lot of different points in your threads, and you are right to be sceptical.. but we've done a lot of our in house testing using Flashpro and KPro's and we always make much better power and better overall maps using the stock ECU tuning method. Flashpro for example with the FN2 K20 Civic gives various issues with cruise control when you lower the Vtec window.. again this is down to vtec window being lowered through manipulation rather than actually re-writing of the parameters. When we lower the vtec window, the car behaves exactly as you would expect it to with zero side effects..

Steve - sure, take a pic of the inside, the lid comes off (just 4 or 5 posi screws holding it on)
Click to expand...

This stuff is so interesting. I love it. I mean I know next to nothing about it, but I'd love to see it done, start to finish and understand the maths etc involved. There's a guy on the Mighty Car Mods forum who's doing an MA in this stuff. He bought that MCM show car they did up (that little green Daihatsu or whatever it was) and he's basically added a turbo to the NA engine and re-written the ECU to accommodate the Turbo, run smoothly, give decent performance gains but still remain relatively economically and within the strict emission laws of Australia. In other words, he's properly turbo'd an NA engine, dealing with the ECU too - the typical stumbling block that stops most people turboing NA engines. It's mind-bending if you don't know how this stuff works. But fascinating nonetheless.

Anyway, I'll upload my ECU photo tomorrow. I'm kinda hoping when I pop it out, it isn't like your Bro's. But I've always been a wishful thinker :lol: .
 
Well I couldn't sleep, did a couple of letters, then the Romney-Obama foreign-policy debate started on BBC News-24 at 2am our time. tbh it was tedious, Romney had the same rhetoric as Bush jnr but could talk eloqently, while Obama had a less aggressive rhetoric but stumbled a bit like Bush jnr.

Anyway my Accord was parked round the back of the house, so I went and looked at the panels either side of the centre console, took them off, and decided to get the ECU out.
With panels off, one 10mm (AF) hex-head set-screw each side holding the ECU down.
Don't forget to remove the neg battery terminal as Fahad said.

Drivers side with panel in view. ECU won't pass under the main heater duct this side.

IMAG0371.jpg


Passenger side with panel removed. Unplug the wiring-plugs before removing the set-screws holding the ECU. Also remove the 10mm set-screw holding the cable support to make removal of the ECU more easy.

IMAG0372.jpg


The bad news is that it's the same as Fahad's brother's ECU.

IMAG0379.jpg


Possible good news is that the part number is different from the one listed on Lings.

IMAG0381.jpg


The part number on it is 38720-RBG-E01, whereas the CM2 pre-2005 part-number on Lings is 37820-RBG-305 and the CL9 pre-2005 part-number on Lings is 37820-RBB-307.

Does this mean that a new replacement ECU for pre-2005 K24 Accord is rewritable as worded in the description in Lings?
Methinks that the answer is probably "YES", but even if true, £945 is too much to pay !!!!

Best to check yours Steve, you never know, it might not be 38720-RBG-E01
 
It's a lottery :lol:

Great work Brian. I'll have a crack at mine later.
 
Well Brian, Snap!

ECU01.jpg


ECU02.jpg


No remap for me :(

So, who's got a facelift 2.4 ECU going spare :lol:
 
We could be waiting some time :lol:

But I did take a look on ebay using "Honda Accord ECU" but there are a lot of other things from that search that are not really ECUs such as "Honda Accord airbag ECU" , "Honda Accord radiator ECU", "Honda Accord tailgate ECU", "Honda Accord engine temperature sensor ECU" , "Honda Accord cruise control ECU" ........... ffs .... is it me or does ECU = Engine Control Unit ?

So you have to put "Honda Accord engine ECU -temperature -Rover" (yes it seems that Accord is ***ociated with Honda Rover by some people).

That gives a list of 48 including a brand new unused 2003-2004 ECU for £190 but part number is 37820-RBA-316, not sure which engine this is for, and the seller didn't know either (VW dealership in Chesterfield that has bought a Honda dealership with parts on the shelf).

It might be worth contacting Honda HQ and asking if 37820-RBG-305 or 37820-RBB-307 really are rewritable, then wait for one to turn up going cheap on ebay. Or get a TSX one from the USA :lol: Either way there's the key coding issue.

Personally I don't fancy getting a post-2004 ECU because it will have issues with missing or incompatible sub-system controllers (other ECUs, as ebay'ers like to call them).
 
Fahad, I had no issue with FN2 and Cruise control , with Flashpro (the map was done by CPL).
And there is a reason why Hondata prefer only rewritable ECUs, because in case of something goes wrong is easier to recover.
I'm glad that are other options out there , is always good to see that.
But regarding Piasini, after seeing my friend's car with their software and seeing the dyno before an after with zero gain over entire rpm range, made me very skeptical.
 
F6HAD said:
Keihin.png
Click to expand...

Is the bit circled in red here the bit you solder your magic tuning device to and send your fairy dust magic remaps through? And is it this that my ECU lacks? I.e. no access points to get into the circuitry/coding of the device?
 
Well well, very interesting thread this- been following from the sidelines;) Despite going off topic a little, it was good to hear different views on the subject tuning or mapping options. I for one like the other chaps would love a bit more punch lower down the rev range for better drivability in these cars (btw mine is a '03). I guess if I want more power (noticeable) then a buying a more powerful & tunable car would be the way to go! So for the meantime the K24 will have to do;)
 
mutsaip said:
I guess if I want more power (noticeable) then a buying a more powerful & tunable car would be the way to go! So for the meantime the K24 will have to do;)
Click to expand...

Unless a facelift ECU works...? In which case you pick one up from a wreckers for a ton, get it recoded to your key (have no idea of cost) then see F6had. I'm sure it would work out great and cost less than the whole TSX ECU + Flashpro etc ;) .
 
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