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Littlebo/UKCL9 CL9/CM2 - K24 Reflash/Remap Test ECU

littlebo

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Hey Johnny. of course NO )
 

Stevearcade

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It will depend on your insurer. If expect somewhere in the region of a 5-10% increase in premium.
 

littlebo

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Insurers don't have dynos and no any service or inspection can find out the reflash since its based on oem FW. . I'm not shure if keeping silence is against the law or something like that, we don't have such practice here, if so, then it's better to inform em, if you don't have to tell about that margin mod - just smile then ). anyway, I always advice to drive safely and take care bout all other ppl on the road.
 

Shantillas

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For sure I'm not saying any thing for my insurer, as littebo mention, they not checking this on cars. Unless you make a big crash, where people will suffer. No one will check and exam your car.

Cheers Littebo, I always try drive safely, never speed up on day with all that ppl on streets :)

Ps. I was driving on motorway and my fuel economy increase around +2 mpg driving with constant speed. Before computer shows 38-39mpg on 70mh, now its 41 to 42 :) On the city also is small difference, still my foot like pushing car ;)
 

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I think the official party line however is that we recommend you always declare all modifications to your insurer as it's a legal requirement.
 

bogdic

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Happy to read your review Steve. Also the MOT report was reassuring. I want to test the ECU next month.


Did you do a 0-60 with the torque app? Was able to get 7.9s without the reflash.
 

littlebo

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7.9 - passport acceleration for MT. Guys here were able to make 7 with reflash, measured with race logic. 6.2 with IH + decat + reflash and CTR tranny. Subies and VAGs cry now ))
 

littlebo

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Not shure if CM wagon can do 7 though , it weigh a lil more then CL.
 

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The weight difference is only about 60KG I believe (I could be wrong...). With me driving (what with my skinny frame) I'm sure I could get close ;)
 

BrittzTypeS

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Hey guys not been online in a few days. Still loving the motor. Who wouldn't. Anyways there was a bit of a discussion about rev drop from first when changing to second.....
Now I don't have a video but I can tell you that from changing from first up to second my rev limiter dropped to 4500.... Said I would mention this as it was a big topic for discussion. So just wanted to add this. But I don't want to stir up a hornets nest so if you don't believe me then no worries but just wanted to inform people that were after an answer.

Oh and my new Koni sports kit with H&R springs has arrived..... Wicked safe. Gets fitted next week. Good times chaps
Good times :)
 

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I too have experienced the revs drop to approximately 4500 when shifting up to second.

However, I ran up to 32mph in second the other day and the revs are in the high 3K range, maybe about 3700-3800, something like that. Given the previous discussions on ratios etc, it should be that driving at approximately 32mph in second will give you a rough idea of what revs the gear shift actually happens at. So I think we can ***ume high 3K for gear shift and rev counter latency for the reading of 4.5K perhaps?
 

littlebo

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3700 is exactly what Brian calculated and what I see in mfactory calc. 4500 in 1-2 gear shift we see with stock revs, with reflash it's close to 5k. discussion was hot and I thought a lot about that effect and I guess it's not a sensor lag or bug. it's more like engine torque is big enough to push clutch to slip a lil and wheels are also slip slightly at hard shifting, that bumps revs and they aren't equal to real speed. I'm gonna catch MT car and record few hi res logs to look more deep in this effect coz timeframe is too short to judje this by taho readings.

Thanks for support and info !
 

littlebo

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Btw, speedo are much mo laggy than taho, that's why we see splash of revs with no noticeable splash in speed. again, timeframe is too short and amount of mph for that amount of rpms is too small for this to note.
 

littlebo

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Even 4.5k. is a big fail for good acceleration and smooth and solid car feeling, thousands of ppl wanna hit the nuts of dat engineer who's made that tranny )
 

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Do you not have a before and after plot? Otherwise it's almost meaningless.

We put my kid brother's K24 on our Dynocom 5000 AWD a couple of years back after fitting the Typhoon kit and with high octane it made 205.9bhp

Now I never ran it before, so I can't tell you what the actual 'gain' was except that on the day it made over 200bhp with a typhoon kit.

If with the above mods you are making just shy of 220bhp, it's really not that impressive I'm afraid. Apologies, I'm trying not to be too critical, and I have nothing to gain by being critical. I don't offer any K24 solutions for these early cars. Just want to see you guys make the best possible product you can.

Perhaps strip out the mods and do some runs before and after and build it up progressively to show a more objective set of results.

Just my 2cents.

EDIT - wait strike that, I thought I read K&N typhoon kit. If it's just a panel filter, then it's probably ok and a decent induction kit setup should release some additional ponies. A before and after would still be better though..
 

littlebo

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Without base run no any "conclusions" and "judgements' can be done here. all we can see is perfect power and torque curves. for those who saw stock curves this picture can tell a lot ))). wanna mention once again - 90% improvements of this map can't be represented with dynos as it measure only full throttle max power mode. so for those who's curious I still recommend to read subjective feedbacks.

my NZ patna has free dyno and will provide me base, reflash and reflash + header, I'll post here so all can wash the bones lol
 

F6HAD

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I get it mate and actually agree with you. I also don't spend a lot of time arguing with dyno plots as it's not as objective as people think and comparing one plot to another from a different dyno tells you nothing but that it's two plots from different dynos.

My point is just around showing the effect of the remap without mods and then build it up, both on the same car under the same climatic conditions etc and on the same dyno.

It will take some effort but then you will have a good reference point to refer people to who are interested in your product and you may also find some tweaks you can make to your map to improve it further.
 

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I have had a good load of chuckles reading this thread, having seen stuff that varies from nebulous to factually incorrect. Anyway, a reply to a few quotes ...



ToothlessDrunk said:
So , is this map worth £300 quid , if I spent £300 would I feel it was money well spent or will I wish I had only spent £200 .
I agree mate, these cars aren't worth much more than £2k in real terms, and I don't see the point in spending well over 10% of the value of the car on something that doesn't give 10% improvement. In the original thread that Steve locked, in #65, I said "overall, that gives about 10% increase in acceleration": and that is it, all the rest about "rev hang" and "dbw lag" and "mpg improvement" were also discussed in the locked thread.

FYI: I bought my CM2 in January 2006 with 12k on the clock. If the reflash had been available back then for £300 I would have had it done. Even 3 years ago I would have considered it. But on a 10-year-old car with 97k miles on the clock, it would be plain stupid. The £300 is better saved as money towards a newer model (e.g. Brett's) or even a different marque (Focus ST). As a foot note that makes the point about the proven way to go, even Honda will be going to Turbo FSI in the future.




littlebo said:
Insurers don't have dynos and no any service or inspection can find out the reflash since its based on oem FW. . I'm not shure if keeping silence is against the law or something like that, we don't have such practice here, if so, then it's better to inform em, if you don't have to tell about that margin mod - just smile then ). anyway, I always advice to drive safely and take care bout all other ppl on the road.
they might not bother where you are, but in this country, if death or serious injury occurs, then it is likely that insurers will get an ECU checked, see my #139 in the original thread that Steve locked





littlebo said:
3700 is exactly what Brian calculated and what I see in mfactory calc. 4500 in 1-2 gear shift we see with stock revs, with reflash it's close to 5k. discussion was hot and I thought a lot about that effect and I guess it's not a sensor lag or bug. it's more like engine torque is big enough to push clutch to slip a lil and wheels are also slip slightly at hard shifting, that bumps revs and they aren't equal to real speed. I'm gonna catch MT car and record few hi res logs to look more deep in this effect coz timeframe is too short to judje this by taho readings.

Thanks for support and info !

Just before Steve locked the other thread, I sent the following 3 points in a pm to several people about this, including Steve

1. If you drive slowly up to 7000 in 1st and change into 2nd slowly, speed is 32 mph (34 on the speedo) @ 3700 rpm when change complete.
2. If you do it at WOT up to 7000 in 1st and yank it into 2nd quickly (rapid down-up of clutch and up-down of accelerator), speed is 39 mph (41 on the speedo) @ 4500 rpm when the change is complete.
3. If you do it at WOT up to 7000 in 1st and yank it into 2nd quickly (rapid down-up of clutch but leave accelerator up) speed is now 35 mph (37 on the speedo) @ 4000.rpm when change is complete.

Another thing that simulates point 2, is to drive "slowly" up to 3700 in 2nd, then simultaneously put your foot down on the clutch simultaneously followed by foot down on the accelerator pedal, then dump the clutch back, and the car leaps forward from 3700 to 4500 (do it with VSA-off else the ECU may reduce fuelling to counter and wheel-spin depending on road surface, but on a good dry road the wheels do not spin). The spinning masses of pistons and flywheel in a 2.4 engine are enough to give an impulse of momentum. You can do this on any car by the way, at any revs usually best past mid-range, it's an old trick.

So all that you guys are doing on a quick gear change at WOT, is a "clutch dump" acceleration.






F6HAD said:
I get it mate and actually agree with you. I also don't spend a lot of time arguing with dyno plots as it's not as objective as people think and comparing one plot to another from a different dyno tells you nothing but that it's two plots from different dynos.

My point is just around showing the effect of the remap without mods and then build it up, both on the same car under the same climatic conditions etc and on the same dyno.

It will take some effort but then you will have a good reference point to refer people to who are interested in your product and you may also find some tweaks you can make to your map to improve it further.
AB-SO-LUTELY






edit:
Finally, a "synonym". I spent £30 the other day on steel strings for my £200 Flamenco guitar. I went into the bathroom and it was a lot louder, and I could even play "oranges and lemons" in the style of Jimi Hendrix. I put the original nylon strings back, and it was not as loud, and it could not be played like Jimi Hendrix.
 

littlebo

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freddofrog said:
on a 10-year-old car with 97k miles on the clock, it would be plain stupid.
Welcome back Mr. engineer. You just forgot to add IMHO.
 

Stevearcade

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<_< alright guys, don't start! Wind your necks in.

Many people spend lots of money on modifying and maintaining cars that are long out of economic viability. Look at the whole Civic scene. Guys rattling around in 15-25 year old Civics, but they're lovingly maintained cars, highly modified, great fun to drive and it's the owner's passion. The global Nissan S-chassis scene... Thousands of people and an entire industry in modified parts still in operation for all things Nissan Silvia. For some a car is a means from A to B, for others it's a lifestyle/culture choice.

So I think to argue the economic worth of modifying a ten year old car is pointless, because you don't modify a car because modifying is value for money, that's absurd (with the exception of remapping diesels to remedy EGR and DPF Issues), modifying cars is a money pit, full stop! You modify a car to make it more of what you want it to be and/or unlock potential that's been left in there by the manufactures.

If your a pragmatic, financially minded motorist a ten year old Accord is pretty worthless and you might be looking to replace it with something more modern and fresh, and replace it quite soon I should imagine. If this is you, don't get the remap as it would be a waste of money. Simple!

If your a slightly more enthusiastic, passionate owner who is partial to modifications and kind of looks at things more from the driving enthusiast within, then this remap is worth more thought.

For example, I spent about £300 lowering my car a couple of years back. Some people will think I'm crazy to have done that. I love the car lowered and wouldn't have it any other way. Couldn't care less that my car was 9 years old at the time.

I got the remap because I much preferred the feel of my car with the test ECU. It's that simple. It clearly has more torque and feels much nicer to drive in the lower revs. It's a lot smoother across the board and the top end is much more fun too. Much more rev-happy. I've done over 5000 miles since the remap and the car hasn't missed a beat. Had a couple of cracking, long motorway runs this summer too. The increased torque and lower VTEC engagement came into their own on overtaking and what not. I loved driving my car before the remap. Now I love it even more. It's simply very engaging and more right for me. That's not to say it will be for you. It all depends what your priorities are.

My car's 11 years old. It's got nearly 90K on the clock. But I fully intend to still have the car in ten years give or take. So the cost of the remap in terms of the age of the car or how long you're going to have it, is in my opinion not a point to argue or worth beating drums about.

We all know what kind of cars owners we are and therefore we should all know in the blink of an eye if £300 for a remap is something we'd be interested in. I think if it's not for you, don't waste your time putting it down.

I don't really enjoy the music of Pink Floyd (understand and appreciate, but not enjoy). But being a music teacher and working in music production, I often hear people talking about how great they are. I simply stay out of the conversation as they obviously come at Pink Floyd from a very different place than I do.

:)
 

freddofrog

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Steve, I notice that you keep using statements about "extra torque": the problem is that you never mention which gear the car is in, and what the rpm or road speed is.

This is important, because if you look at the curves in the picture below (which I have copied from the locked thread), you will see that the main area of extra torque is between 5000 and 6200 rpm. In that area, it's up to 17% improvement, whereas elsewhere, it's not going to be noticeable.

For you to be above 5000 rpm, you need to be doing at least the following speeds in each gear (***uming your speedo reads 5% high like mine does)

1st 24mph
2nd 45mph
3rd 62mph
4th 82mph
5th 102mph



By altering the DBW ratio, in effect, this reflash "cons" the driver into thinking that he has more torque (because less throttle movement is needed): as a moderator, and as an early adopter of this reflash, I think that you owe the readers a duty of care, and should be much more specific and less nebulous in your descriptions of driving.

One further point about this allegibly noticeable torque improvement relative to gear ratios is that, for each gear, the torque improvement by changing to a lower gear is:

1st has 88% more torque than 2nd
2nd has 39% more torque than 3rd
3rd has 32% more torque than 4th
4th has 25% more torque than 5th

So again, I question how on earth this reflash is able to be as good as changing down to a lower gear. And as I say, if the engine is below 5000 rpm, then the reflash offers no improvement in torque anyway.

Finally, on the topic of mods to these cars, one should consider "sunk costs": the more money that you "sink" into a family car like this, the more difficult it comes to accepting the day when the car has reached time for the scrap yard. If the catalytic converter on my car packs up, the car is going to the scrap yard as I will not spend any large sums of money on it. This is the situation that all pre-facelift 7th gens now face: they are either used as a family car, or a car bought on the cheap by someone who is single and is prepared to mess about a bit before it bites the dust. Unless one's "missus" is unaware of one's expenditure (!) then the car cannot be both.
 

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My review on the reflash ecu. This is my view on it, others may disagre but this is what I think
I've been running the test ECU now for a few days and I can only ask myself MY haven't i done this earlier!!

First of my mods are,
Mugen short shifter (I know this doesn't change the power)
GruppeM induction kit
RBC intake manifold
Cat back 'true' 3" custom exhaust system

Before reflash,
The car felt sharper with the mods but when a mate picked up is CL9 we had a little play and yes I felt like I waste all that money getting the mods as there was not a noticeable difference between the to.

Normal driving round town,
There's not really much difference between standard and re flashed.

Motor way,
Same again really nothing really to report.

Back lane blasts,
This is where the reflash really comes alive!
Every gear change is smoother up or down
The way the car picks up now is amazing. Makes you feel like the car "wants" to go faster
You don't have to drop it down gears to keep in the power band as much now.
Keeping revs above 4500 you'll have the power coming in.

Fuel,
Not noticed any difference with the fuel as of yet.

Playing with other cars (most of us do)
With the mods and the reflash it's really put the car into the same window as other great Hondas, like the civic and the S2000.
I can now have more fun with them while going on drives.

As a final,
Yes you do need this reflash to make the car come alive.
I can know play with the bigger boys and give them a good run.
The accord is no longer a family car!

Again this is my account of the flash. Yes people might disagre with some of my statements but haters have to hate.

Hope this sort review will help others to choose the reflash.
 

Jon_G

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@Crispy - I feel I must reply that people disagreeing with you doesn't make them 'haters'... why can't people accept disagreement without it becoming personal?
 

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As per the graph, the pull in the higher revs is impressive over stock. It's worth noting though that while the lower rev torque looks only marginally improved, the difference, even this marginal improvement makes is noticeable under daily driving conditions. I know you're not going to believe that and think it's all just placebo, Brian. So let's ***ume I've been "conned" into thinking the car's performance is "enhanced" simply by the altering of DBW ratios. If it makes the car respond better, feel better and make the driver more acutely aware of the torque and feel like he's making better use of the torque, could you still not argue that the car's performance has been enhanced?

I mean whether I have more torque, or whether the car is simply now making better used of the torque that's always been there, does it matter if the drive feels better? Personally, it doesn't matter to me.

I'm sorry you find my description of the car post-remap to be vague Brian. I have always approached this as a customer/consumer and therefore can only give an honest opinion based on my experience. I've never laid claim to scientifically ****yse the map from an engineering standpoint. I've A/B tested it against stock ECU on a route I know extremely well as explained in my review. From that I was convinced it was worth taking a punt on. I've covered several thousand miles since and I'm still very happy with it.

Yes I'm a forum moderator, but I'm still entitled to an opinion, to try stuff out for myself and express/explain my thoughts and feelings on things as best as possible (sorry it's not exactly what you want mate, but I'm only human). In this instance, I've tried out the test ECU, I wrote as clear and thorough write up as I possibly could, based on my experience of the drive, and my knowledge of the car. I made it very clear at the bottom of the review that this was my personal experience and in no way an endorsement by the Type Accord forum. It's even in bold so everyone can see...

So you feel I owe it to TA as a moderator to be more detailed, despite what I believe to be a pretty objective user review on the first page of this thread. I said all I could think of to say on the matter. Frankly, I think it's poor to snipe at my moderator role in light of this review. Has it occurred to you that I was potentially taking a risk by reviewing a relatively unknown product on my own car for the sake of the forum, and all done in the hope of bringing some peace and quiet to the ridiculous thread that I eventually locked (not sure you stated that I locked it enough in your last couple of posts ;) ).

As a member of this community I think you owe it to TA's members to not underestimate their own judgement and ability to make decisions. They can read your posts about gear ratios and they can read user reviews. They can draw their own conclusions and make their own decisions. Nobody's forcing them to part with cash, but you'd think they were sometimes when you read between the lines of your posts.

It's not like there's been a stampede of people all rushing to buy Littlebo's reflash and then suffering engine failures while Littlebo swims through a pool of money like Scrooge McDuck.

Conmen have more business acumen that Sergey :lol: . Yes he's independent, yes his english is poor, yes his business acumen is next to 0, but he's made my car more enjoyable to drive with his remap. I'm sorry you find it hard to believe, but that's simply the truth of it from my viewpoint Brian.

And I agree, Led Zep over Pink Floyd any day of the week ;) .
 

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Jon_G said:
@Crispy - I feel I must reply that people disagreeing with you doesn't make them 'haters'... why can't people accept disagreement without it becoming personal?
Indeed. Can we not use that expression. It only ever fuels fires.

Any more "Haters" comments will be heavily edited by me, as too will any complaining that I've edited out "Haters" comments.

Thank you
 
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