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CTDi Hybrid Turbo Install

As per this thread: http://typeaccord.co.uk/forum/topic/22213-help-needed-in-devonsomerset-area/ I need a 'loan' of a 2.2 CTDi Accord for about 20 minutes to work out the unmodified VNT Actuator length.

Backing up a bit, I took a short-notice trip up to Leeds on Tue to drop the clutch off at CG Motorsports. They seem confident they can get it working correctly and as there were 2 other Twin Plates in there I suspect this may be a known issue with the early ones - also, the later ones are from a different supplier. Overall promising though and I'm waiting to hear back from them...

I also went to Turbo Clinic where they adjusted the VNT actuator to Trevor's setting of 5.5 (not sure of unit used?). Initially it was apparently at 7, so it was well off and there definitely seemed a lot more power during the drive back, which was a bit eventful (less said of that the better)!

The next day I put the full-fat S3 map on, expecting good things... and it seemed massively flat - it was only really getting somewhere at about 4K rpm! Same thing with the Premier S2, which before had been fine - strange! Plus the S3 maps were still causing low fuel pressure faults (S2 - fine). Now that I had seen how the actuator could be read at TC the previous day I did a bit of measuring myself with a vacuum brake bleeder I had lying around, comparing it to my spare turbo and then seeing what the Hybrid was showing. This is where it got a bit confusing...

My spare turbo (which I had played with previously, so may have been a bit 'off' (hence the other thread)) showed 12 Psi when fully 'closed'. When I checked the Hybrid, it was on 15 Psi - no similarity and I don't know where the other settings are coming from - Trev? I set the Hybrid to 12 PSi on my gauge and all is well - very strange!

Once I've got a read from a fully un-altered actuator the plan is to get the thing to Celtic and see what they can get from it, as they can read all the data. Might take a while before I can coordinate a slot, but I'll see.
 
Michael this is the whole problem with these hybrid turbo's, the turbo will never do exactly what is being requested of it. Your maps have been set to a certain turbo tolerance.. by adjusting the actuator, you've changed those tolerances again. The turbo will either make too much or too little boost.. and at the wrong times.
 
F6HAD said:
Michael this is the whole problem with these hybrid turbo's, the turbo will never do exactly what is being requested of it. Your maps have been set to a certain turbo tolerance.. by adjusting the actuator, you've changed those tolerances again. The turbo will either make too much or too little boost.. and at the wrong times.
Do you mean the N75 maps Fahad?

Thing is - it seems to work fine on the S2 map and never over-boosts - is that just because the S2 isn't demanding more of the turbo than it would a stock one anyway?

(happy to chat if it's easier to explain to a thick Southern Jock? :D)
 
It's probably more to do with how we request the boost, our Stage 2 is a very linear power curve. I've no idea what your other tuner is requesting in the stage 3.. Anyways, after all your perseverance i'm sure you will get it to a point where you are happy with the set up.
 
Hi Michael I'm down ilfracombe for a week starting the 19th August if it's any use.
2006 diesel tourer.
 
Bri said:
Hi Michael I'm down ilfracombe for a week starting the 19th August if it's any use.
2006 diesel tourer.
F6HAD said:
It's probably more to do with how we request the boost, our Stage 2 is a very linear power curve. I've no idea what your other tuner is requesting in the stage 3.. Anyways, after all your perseverance i'm sure you will get it to a point where you are happy with the set up.
I'm broadly happy now, but just want to bottom out once and for all what can/can't be done with this setup and whether my fuelling issues are turbo, map or fuel system related. If a standard turbo can get to 204 hp, mine shouldn't be having fuelling issues before it even gets there. Plus Trevor seems happy with his now.

If I don't get it resolved, then there's a good, low-miles OEM turbo in my garage that I can fit in a day and then max out, so this is more an interest thing now, with little additional cost.

Bri said:
Hi Michael I'm down ilfracombe for a week starting the 19th August if it's any use.
2006 diesel tourer.
Might be, thanks Bri. If I've not managed to sort it out by around then I'll PM you :)
 
You're welcome mate.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
 
Michael said:
I also went to Turbo Clinic where they adjusted the VNT actuator to Trevor's setting of 5.5 (not sure of unit used?). Initially it was apparently at 7, so it was well off and there definitely seemed a lot more power during the drive back, which was a bit eventful (less said of that the better)!

The next day I put the full-fat S3 map on, expecting good things... and it seemed massively flat - it was only really getting somewhere at about 4K rpm! Same thing with the Premier S2, which before had been fine - strange! Plus the S3 maps were still causing low fuel pressure faults (S2 - fine). Now that I had seen how the actuator could be read at TC the previous day I did a bit of measuring myself with a vacuum brake bleeder I had lying around, comparing it to my spare turbo and then seeing what the Hybrid was showing. This is where it got a bit confusing...

My spare turbo (which I had played with previously, so may have been a bit 'off' (hence the other thread)) showed 12 Psi when fully 'closed'. When I checked the Hybrid, it was on 15 Psi - no similarity and I don't know where the other settings are coming from - Trev? I set the Hybrid to 12 PSi on my gauge and all is well - very strange!
Hi, I think I've got the actuator settings just right, running a modified Stage 2 Elite mapping on mine with Shell diesel. Rarely use anything but part throttle with quick response and power a plenty. PSI runs in the 14 - 25 range (if I hold to above 4000RPM) Full throttle pushes that up to the 28 psi region. Do not have any lack of fueling issues. Don't think I am getting any more Max power out of the hybrid but the part throttle response is far stronger. Think this is down to the faster spooling and compressor wheel efficiency. (25% improved on OEM) Am happy how the car runs, and as it will be up for sale next month (Audi Q3 S line plus replacement) someone will be buying a peach of a motor.
The 25% improvement in compressor efficiency will account for the stronger boost readings, I believe.

Have been informed (by TC) that a vacuum of 5.5 PSI is needed to fully close the turbo vanes, unsure why you need 12 psi.
 
Hi, I'm going to change the intercooler with 550x180x65mm with 63mm outlets. I will change the turbo and the exhaust manifold soon after, but now I want to change the intercooler first, so when I remove the OEM one, enought space will free up and I will install Webasto heater. So I'm really confused about the pipework and the hoses. Should I go for wider diameter pipes, or keep the OEM ones? Is it better (and possible) to change the OEM path from the turbo to the intercooler, from the cooler to the inlet is easy to be moved.
 
morpheous87 said:
Hi, I'm going to change the intercooler with 550x180x65mm with 63mm outlets. I will change the turbo and the exhaust manifold soon after, but now I want to change the intercooler first, so when I remove the OEM one, enought space will free up and I will install Webasto heater. So I'm really confused about the pipework and the hoses. Should I go for wider diameter pipes, or keep the OEM ones? Is it better (and possible) to change the OEM path from the turbo to the intercooler, from the cooler to the inlet is easy to be moved.
Sorry for the late reply Miroslav! Not been on here at all recently!!

I think it's probably too late to answer this (sorry again!!) but I would use the same diameter hoses as OEM and the routing is whatever you can make work with as few tight bends as possible. I've left my Turbo to IC pipe pretty much Stock and TBH can't see how else it could be routed.
 
Well - I thought I'd update this finally... and the news is good (sort of)!

In the middle of last year I took it to Celtic to see what they had to say about it (last chance), but the car started conking out continually on route, so by the time I got there the car was almost undriveable (I found out later the actuator adjuster had actually loosened as I was driving - my fault, but at the time Celtic couldn't touch it).


I'd just decided to start saving for another project, which I'd had a look at after leaving Celtic that day, so it wasn't all bad, but at this point I was back to using the Accord as a tool for saving money (Hypermiing is fun!!) so I swapped my spare OEM turbo back onto the car (getting quite good at that now) and put the S2 map on and gave up on any further efforts.

I did stick the Twin Plate back on though and, long story short, the previous installer of my clutch hadn't left enough free-play, so it was constantly partially engaged - with obvious results. It has now been re-faced and installed by someone else and isworking perfectly. The stock master cylinder volume means that the pedal has to sit very high to get the necessary pressure to engage the clutch, but I've got used to it very quickly!

However, some discussions I had with Celtic regarding the Hybrid not conforming to the expected VNT and other data that was being relied on by the ECU (as Faddy has mentioned already above) and therefore explaining why the Hybrid's boost wasn't being controlled by their map (not a surprise). I did ask Celtic if a stock turbo could therefore still use the Stage 3 map and the answer was a qualified yes, with the uprated clutch and FMIC, but obviously there's increased risk, especially at WOT. Having seen a few grenaded Supra turbos in my time this was something I could understand, so that was how I left it...

...until about a week ago, when I thought, sod it!! Seeing as the spare turbo on there had only done 40K miles I thought let's see what actually happens and put one of the tamer S3 maps on.
What a result! Boost is now controlled, the car hasn't died once and the power delivery means this thing will now legitimately wheel-spin in second from a rolling start! I tried to do another 0-60 video for comparison, but just couldn't get it to hook - eventually I had to feather 1st and be very conservative with 2nd and I still easily equalled the previous videoed time - this thing really shifts and in the usual motorway 50-70, 70-XX type driving, just goes, while remaining perfectly driveable in normal commuting. It's also not died once, no matter how much i tried!

Today, i had a bit of spare time, so managed to get over to the Dyno. Pictures paint a thousand words and all that so...




Yay! B)

In sum, when compared to the Celtic Stage 3 Hybrid base map you can see my Hybrid, in its best run at 199 hp, was trying to boost to the moon and then staggering big time. The stock turbo, on the less aggressive Stage 3 map, is initially beating (quicker spool), then matching, the Celtic Hybrid and then running out of steam at higher rpm, hence the power drop-off. Plus the map on there is a bit less aggressive.

This has vindicated that the Hybrid I am running does NOT work with this map (Free soapbox Faddy - :p
). Maybe, as i said, if someone who really knows these maps gets to work on it, they could get it set up fine, I know others have got these working (Trev), but I don't want to put any more time and money into this - I'll just keep the stocker on now and if it goes, it goes - it's not like i'm hooning it about anyway and the power is very satisfying.

Overall, though I'm really impressed with how the little stocker has done - a 50% increase over standard power is pretty damn good! I know I'm risking popping it, but hey! I don't habitually drive at WOT and if it goes, it goes!

So, in summary. I couldn't get it to work, and I tried! However, I do believe it's a mapping issue fundamentally, but you'd need to spend a lot of time and/or money to resolve it and I am not doing that as I don't believe the juice is worth the squeeze - especially as I'm already pushing the stock fuelling system close to the limit and upgrading that would be even more cost. What I DO have though, is an Accord that is nudging 210hp, that handles brilliantly (A-Spec Suspension) and still gets 55+ mpg when handled carefully. It's also increased my overall mechanical knowledge (with a bit of mapping thrown in too)

Happy with that and That's All Folks!!! :)
 
Nice and clear write up there. At least you have tried to do something that ain't common to do on these.

Glad you decided to stick the stocker on and pray! Enjoy the power and if it blows then sod it!

Thanks for the thread. Enjoyed it
 
Nice and clear write up there. At least you have tried to do something that ain't common to do on these.

Glad you decided to stick the stocker on and pray! Enjoy the power and if it blows then sod it!

Thanks for the thread. Enjoyed it
 
Double new year post fail!

Damn samsung :(
 
Farqui said:
Hurrah, good to hear that you now have a working and fun set-up.

What a journey eh.
Very true - and thanks for the support both on here and Civinfo! :) I'll post the same thing up there when I have a chance.

Now that I know where and what the issues are I could source the Hybrid that is known to work with this map (simple solution), but with the car heading towards 200K miles I can't justify the cost. What I can say to others going down this route, is that the Celtic setup, based on this last dyno, does work, but if you want to try a different Hybrid, like I did, then prepare for some serious mapping to get it dialled in (like Trev).

As said, there's another project hopefully getting started around May time (if I can save!), so that is now the focus. B)

Burbleboy said:
Nice and clear write up there. At least you have tried to do something that ain't common to do on these.

Glad you decided to stick the stocker on and pray! Enjoy the power and if it blows then sod it!

Thanks for the thread. Enjoyed it
You're welcome - took a long time and with frequent long pauses! :ph34r:

Burbleboy said:
Double new year post fail!

Damn samsung :(
Still recovering from New Year? ;)
 
Thought I'd saunter back in here, blow off the cobwebs and post a bit of an update...

(Hi all! :) )

After my last post way back when, I'd ended up switching back to a Stage 2 map after the Clutch master cylinder went. It's not got enough volume to work properly with the twin-plate, it seems, so I put my OE clutch in and didn't want to risk blowing it. The map was also still causing occasional limp issues, and I didn't have the time to investigate further. Home life has been a bit hectic - as I now have a 15-month old daughter and another project on the go...



(It doesn't look like that anymore, as I stripped it down to a shell, dipped it and it's now in the middle of body and paint)

... but anyway, it was the end of an era for the Accord, I thought.

Since then the Accord's been doing some long commutes (200 miles daily just now) and has clocked up over 240K miles and was only getting the bare minimum cleaning and maintenance (time vs new baby!). As a result, I was beginning to get itchy, especially as at those miles it's likely to need a turbo, or clutch, or both soon, which will be a lot for the worth of it now.

While I am now actively looking for the next moneypit (which may be a CU2 2.4 Accord, just saying...), I still felt that there was life in the old git yet, and as a swan-song decided to put a milder stage 3 map back on and that, as well as servicing it yesterday, I'd give it some cosmetic TLC, while the little'un was away with the in-laws. I'd also previously cleaned the intake, sensors and EGR out (loads of ***** in there!!!).

I started off by polishing the headlights:

Before:


After:


Comparison:


The photos really don't do it justice - it's really lifted the whole front end again. Later I also painted the lower grille, which has been doing sterling duty keeping stones away from the FMIC. Along with a thorough clean, leather re-colour and a few other jobs, it now looks like a new car!



(There's still condensation in the RH Headlight - hence it still looks cloudy. Will sort that later.)

Interestingly, as the Stage 3 has bedded back in, it's been faultless. The OE clutch is even holding up pretty well, although probably not for long. Commuting at slow motorway speeds probably helps mind you, but there's been quite a few recent WOT pulls and it's been fine. I suspect having also recently cleaned the intake and sensors has helped, as they were pretty crudded up and poor MAF readings under load can cause limp... we'll see.

So, I decided to finally get a decent 0-60 vid done today. This is also so I can compare its performance now with whatever I might look to get next and make sure I'm not downgrading!!

Vid here:

https://youtu.be/ZZWKPMddKIQ

Pretty much bang on 7 seconds - not too bad for a FWD grandad-wagon. The in-gear acceleration is immense too - looks like it's going to be a hard decision whether to get rid now... :wink3:
 
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