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P2004 - IMRC Intake Manifold Runner Control problems

So they can make more money :lol: Who knows, I might wait for Carls findings and go from there ;)
 
Doubt it Fahad if what Adam says is right the I ***ume it is the control valve itself. Will wait to see the results of Carls then order mine, although I had some jerking today on mine in 3rd gear when going round a roundabout with the valve disconnected. Hmmm could just be more money wasted for me!

Ok that settles it then.


Once i've picked up both parts (the filter is on Tuesday ) i'll fit just the filter and re-connect and see how it drives for a couple of days, unless of course any jerkiness comes about. if there is no jerkiness then the advice would be to buy just the filter for the facelift. As i've got the valve i'll replace that even if there is no jerkiness afterward, but I can do it at a later date. (constantly carrying 10mm socket, wrench and torque wrench at the moment so I can switch over anywhere)

Nick as for feeling a bit of jerkiness was it bad or just slight, also was the car upto temp or not?

What speed were you doing on the roundabout too fast and it might have been the VSA :lol: , too slow for third and the engine hasn't got the same power to pull the higher gears at low revs and could cause that effect.
 
Revs were between 1.5-2K its a big roundabout m1/m69 interchange, car was warming up about up to temp and it does it there nearly every day. VSA wasnt cutting in.

Well I will eagerly await your ****ysis Carl. Good Luck and keep me posted.
 
Nick,

it is interesting that you mention the judder, I had a little judder on the way home, but no way anything like when the solenoid is connected.


From what I have read the IMRC Solenoid Valve controls the IMRC Valve.

This is what I think the IMRC Valve does :

Basically the IMRC Valve is for stable combustion in low speed range.
The solenoid opens and closes the IMRC Valve (the IMRC Valve is connected to the solenoid by the vacuum pipe that goes down to the flying saucer thingy) this varies the flow rate between the swirl port and the secondary port, ultimately controlling the swirl volume.

From what I have read so far, the swirl chamber effectively mixes the fuel air better ensuring better combustion and economy.

So if there is no control of the IMRC Valve then there is less control on the swirl volume and thus effecting the mixture.

I would also imagine that could cause some judder, I think the main thing is that there is hardly any judder compared to when the solenoid is connected.

I would imagine it all depends on what is happening whilst it is dis-connected there will still be vacuum but it won't be controlled, so the vacuum will either close or fully open the valve resulting in a mixture not expected by the ECU whereas with the solenoid controlling the valve, the correct mixture is made for what the ECU is demanding and adjusting dozens of other settings to ensure smooth operation.

That's how I see it anyhow, but maybe someone with more technical knowledge maybe able to explain it better
 
Sounds good to me Carl. I have been doing some reading up too on these valves and everything you say seems to go with what I have read to.

Well I hope by Tuesday (when you get your bits) I will know if I need to order the whole lot or just the filter. I suspect the whole lot. Did you order it from your local dealer?
 
Sounds good to me Carl. I have been doing some reading up too on these valves and everything you say seems to go with what I have read to.

Well I hope by Tuesday (when you get your bits) I will know if I need to order the whole lot or just the filter. I suspect the whole lot. Did you order it from your local dealer?


Yes, although it is special order so the discount card was useless.

I decided on using the dealer as I know they can normally get the parts quite quickly.

I'll probably pick up the solenoid tomorrow, but i'll hold off fitting it.

I think it is wise for me to try the filter first as it will either rule it out and save some cash or point to it as the culprit on the face-lift and save even more cash.

They said they hadn't heard of lings, but the diagram they had on their computer was the same as Lings!!
 
I will go armed with the Lings price list just in case when I go! I noticed that you got it at the same price as on Lings, were they going to charge you more than that, or is it coincidence it was the same price?
 
Didn't have to haggle on price, just asked whether the Arnold Clarke discount card worked with special order (It didn't).

I took the Lings to just highlight which part it was, as it is described as Frequency Solenoid Valve on Lings so just had visions of them not knowing what I was asking for etc.

Think it is worth taking anyway as then they know you have a good idea of the price etc. Looking at what you have had changed to try and solve this problem, looks like they have sold you enough, worth asking for discount, you never know
 
Carl interesting read about your theory on the solenoid valve.i was wondering if you knew anything about the evr valve which is also to do with the egr valve.it looks a bit like the solenoid valve I bought can that also affect the juddering nick is experiencing???
 
Carl interesting read about your theory on the solenoid valve.i was wondering if you knew anything about the evr valve which is also to do with the egr valve.it looks a bit like the solenoid valve I bought can that also affect the juddering nick is experiencing???


The EVR valve (EGR Vacuum Regulator) as I understand it controls the EGR valve position thus controlling the amount of exhaust gas recirculated, lowering the combustion temperature to reduced the amount of NOx emissions. However and please correct me if I am wrong, but the EGR should only start to work when the engine is getting up to temp, so if something was wrong with the EGR or the EVR I would have thought the symptom would be noticed after a little while of driving.

Whereas with the IMRC is controlling the mixture at lower engine speeds and therefore could possibly cause a fault from cold and maybe even when up to temp at lower revs. I tended to notice the problem from Cold until warmed up and the symptom of the judder etc was like when you tried to drive an old car from cold without the choke,I ***ume and stand to be corrected but this could be because the ECU is injecting an amount of fuel and expecting a certain amount of swirl to produce the correct mixture for the situation, however too much air is coming in making the mixture leaner than required, creating the choke like symptom.

I would imagine you could dis-connect the EVR and re-connect the IMRC and see if the symptoms increase or not, the only thing with this is the EGR won't be working properly and I'm not sure on this but wouldn't that damage the Cat?
 
Carl, for an accountant you sure have a good handle on engines!!

Just had an email from a member in Europe who was experiencing this problem too.. he read the thread, disconnected his solenoid frequency valve.. and guess what.. problem solved :eek:
 
Just had an email from a member in Europe who was experiencing this problem too.. he read the thread, disconnected his solenoid frequency valve.. and guess what.. problem solved B)


That's good news, I think with it being somewhat intermittent it has been hard to diagnose and even though unfortunate when the MIL light comes on for Waj, it has enabled, certainly one problem to be identified.
If it does solves Nick's problem, which it looks promising to do so, then it has been a long time coming and it highlights some of the great advantages of the forum, unfortunately, Nick and others has replaced many expensive parts, trying to solve this and I think for Nick, doing the diagnostics at HH, was possibly the final last attempt.


From the thread Jav, Beefy and Joooe have come across the fault at sometime and were quick to confirm what the fault was. CJ also had written a piece on the old forum concerning the same part, so it's been a problem for a while. Shame the old forum info has been lost as some of this type of info won't come back onto the forum until someone else experiences it.

It would be interesting though if the others who have had to replace this solenoid valve could describe some of the symptoms they had, as it may have been different from the jerking and more of a brief hesitation.

I wonder also, on my car I remember that some days it would feel like the engine couldn't be bothered and then you would start it the next day and it would feel enthused and raring to go, like the car had a personality I didn't have any juddering or anything it just felt hard work to get it to go.

Carl, for an accountant you sure have a good handle on engines!!

LOL, mostly what I've picked up from reading fourms and other sites on what these parts do in principle, combined together with stuff I learnt on various principles when I did my own cars (but before ECU's took over!!), it's nothing like our good CJ and others on here!!
 
Carl, I do agree with you.. but I can't help but feel if at least one of the guys experiencing the problem would have just taken it to a friendly dealer like HH earlier - it probably would have been diagnosed quicker.. And I also note that CJ did definitely mention it on the old forum but even I missed it!!

Oh well, you live and learn I guess B)
 
Well fingers crossed, if it works it will be great.

Connected mine back up today and I definitely believe the hesitation and jerking is worse and more often. As soon as you find out one way or another Carl, let me know and I will go down to the local stealer ;)

Faddy, you maybe right, that was my next plan of action. For some reason I don't have alot of faith in my local dealer B) So it would have been the next step and if the smoking is still bad after valve replacement then I definitely still want the guys at HH to have a look.
 
Thats why I said 'friendly' dealer :lol: I know exactly what you mean Nick.
 
Carl, I do agree with you.. but I can't help but feel if at least one of the guys experiencing the problem would have just taken it to a friendly dealer like HH earlier - it probably would have been diagnosed quicker.. And I also note that CJ did definitely mention it on the old forum but even I missed it!!

Oh well, you live and learn I guess :)


Fahad, I do agree, however the only thing was the main focus areas for this were the EGR and MAF which unfortunately proved fruitless (possibly harsh as there are a lot more clean EGR's around!!) and of course these are expensive bits to replace. I would imagine it was better for people to try and clean them, then just get them replaced by the dealer or at least rule them out. Equally those who did clean the EGR etc have probably solved another problem anyway and possibly prolonged the life of the valve.

Now still being a novice in the fault code department, I don't know whether a fault code would show for this particular valve, not unless it failed completely, maybe beefy or CJ could clarify this. A few of the guys have taken them in, but of course by the time you get to the dealer the car is warm and the fault almost gone.

To be honest this is one of my reasons for going to HH meet, not only to meet some of the guys of the club, but to meet the guys down there and see how they work.

As for missing CJ's post, it's easily done, especially if at that time it wasn't a common problem or solving a differently described problem.
 
It does show a fault code mate (the hint is in the ***le of the thread) :)
 
Well fingers crossed, if it works it will be great.

Connected mine back up today and I definitely believe the hesitation and jerking is worse and more often. As soon as you find out one way or another Carl, let me know and I will go down to the local stealer :)
Nick, I'll be picking the filter up hopefully Tuesday Lunchtime, then I'll fit the filter when I get back to the office and see how it is on the way home when the engine is colder, if all ok with just the filter change, I think I will wait until I have driven it the next morning to confirm. If it still shows signs then I'll replace the valve and let you know what happens, as soon as possible.

When you connected yours back up, was it ok at first, then started to hesitate?

Also did you notice the engine was quieter whilst dis-connected as opposed to connected?
 
It does show a fault code mate (the hint is in the ***le of the thread) :)

Ah, but is that because it's gone and therefore put the MIL light on ?

Speaking for myself no MIL light came on until I disconnected the solenoid.
 
Nick, I'll be picking the filter up hopefully Tuesday Lunchtime, then I'll fit the filter when I get back to the office and see how it is on the way home when the engine is colder, if all ok with just the filter change, I think I will wait until I have driven it the next morning to confirm. If it still shows signs then I'll replace the valve and let you know what happens, as soon as possible.When you connected yours back up, was it ok at first, then started to hesitate? Also did you notice the engine was quieter whilst dis-connected as opposed to connected?
It was there a bit at first, but I noticed it a lot more the second time and its there quite a bit today. Didn't really notice if it was quieter, but is does sound different. Also had a look at the swirl valve lever when it was disconnected and it doesn't move (as I suspected) when you plug it back in the swirl valve lever starts operating again, but mine seems to fluctuate a lot, which I am not sure if it should do that much!

Also as you mentioned I have never had the warning light like Waj had, so I suppose it would have been difficult to find until someone had the issue.

Well keep me posted. By Wednesday/Thursday I could be down the dealer getting mine ordered!
 
It was there a bit at first, but I noticed it a lot more the second time and its there quite a bit today. Didn't really notice if it was quieter, but is does sound different. Also had a look at the swirl valve lever when it was disconnected and it doesn't move (as I suspected) when you plug it back in the swirl valve lever starts operating again, but mine seems to fluctuate a lot, which I am not sure if it should do that much!

Also as you mentioned I have never had the warning light like Waj had, so I suppose it would have been difficult to find until someone had the issue.

Well keep me posted. By Wednesday/Thursday I could be down the dealer getting mine ordered!


I would imagine the fluctuation is probably due to the Vac leak on the solenoid valve not being able to open/close and keep position of the IMRC Valve.
 
Would there be any chance that HH could do this solenoid/filter set at a 'special' price for us? Seems like there could be quite a few being ordered. I've bought from HH before but always just paid the price asked, I'm not so good at pushing for a discount over the phone when ordering, but if it was set up and agreed in advance I'd be happy to take it. What do you think, would they do it?
 
Ed, IME lings is the last place I would get parts they always want top dollar, HH would be cheaper Im sure.
 
Agreed, I've never considered buying from Lings, though it seems looking through this thread Lings and Honda dealers are the same price for this part. I take it you don't think HH would do a discount for us then specifically on this one?
 
Ed, IME lings is the last place I would get parts they always want top dollar, HH would be cheaper Im sure.


Well thanks for telling us that now!! LOL :D :D

Agreed, I've never considered buying from Lings, though it seems looking through this thread Lings and Honda dealers are the same price for this part. I take it you don't think HH would do a discount for us then specifically on this one?


Ed if you get a decent quote let people know (if ok with HH to do so), equally if you want to hang fire until say Wednesday, then I should have ruled in or out whether it is just the filter ( this applies to the facelift, if yours is pre-facelift then it is integral with the replacement part)
 
Carl, mine is facelift, but I'd wager its the solenoid vac unit that has failed, though would be nice it was just the filter. I'm abroad until the first week in November, but watching this thread with great interest, I'll ask my wife to ring up and order the bits so that they are waiting for me to fit as soon as I'm home if the results are as favourable as they seem to be. Anyway fingers are crossed it might just be a bunged up filter, though did I read that they had redesigned the solenoid/vac unit as the original needed improving?

All eyes are on you now, we are waiting with baited breath.
 
Carl, mine is facelift, but I'd wager its the solenoid vac unit that has failed, though would be nice it was just the filter. I'm abroad until the first week in November, but watching this thread with great interest, I'll ask my wife to ring up and order the bits so that they are waiting for me to fit as soon as I'm home if the results are as favourable as they seem to be. Anyway fingers are crossed it might just be a bunged up filter, though did I read that they had redesigned the solenoid/vac unit as the original needed improving?

All eyes are on you now, we are waiting with baited breath.

No pressure then !! :D

My money is on the solenoid too, but as I've bought both parts, it's worth giving ago and if it is the filter then others maybe quids in!

One of the reasons why I am giving the filter a go first is I think the filter is to bleed off excess vacuum, ensuring correct pressure is applied to the IMRC valve, if this were to become blocked or restricted then there is too much vacuum and therefore limiting the movement of the valve. I cannot think of any other reason you would have a filter at the end of a line otherwise.

Of course from Waj we don't know whether it was the filter or the solenoid as it is a combined part, however like Fahad has mentioned it is interesting why the filter is separate.

Looking at the pre-facelift solenoid and the facelift, apart from model No.s the only visual difference seems to be the filter, which is now a complete separate service item.

Well we will find out sooner or later.

Cheers
 
Ok, I fitted the filter only at Lunchtime and reconnected the solenoid valve, started the car a few times to ensure the mil light disappeared. :unsure:

Of course the car was already up to temp so I wasn't surprised when I got no jerking, economy per the OBC also seemed better than previous though.

Got back to the office around 13:45, then left the office again at 5:30 homeward bound, this time I was expecting some juddering but I got one slight "hic-up" and that was it. My good lady then went out in the car later, with the instruction to report any hint of juddering, hesitation etc but still nothing.

Also I got a bit of smoke at first but then didn't notice anything much afterwards. :angry:

So at the moment don't know whether it is because the valve has been disconnected and rested that it is currently working or whether the filter is all that needs replacing.

I am surprised I didn't get any particular symptom from a coldish start as when I last connected the solenoid, it appeared quite quickly.

The engine felt clearer, the only way I can describe this is when you have a cold and then you have a halls menthol sweet and you can breath so much easier.

I plan on getting in early tomorrow, with a nice cold start, which is when the fault has shown itself the most previously and will update the thread tomorrow morning before 9 a.m, with the results and if there is no juddering keep running with just the filter replaced until say the weekend and then replace the solenoid also and see if there is any noticeable difference.

So apart from the one "hic-up" similar to the sort you would get with the solenoid disconnected the problem has yet to show itself, however because of the "hic-up" and the car has only done around 25 miles since the filter has been changed, I think it is too early to say whether just the filter or not.

So fingers crossed I'll have some more defining news in the morning.
 
My money is still on this filter Carl, as I said before, it makes sense if they revised the design to allow you change just the filter.. Can you post a pic of the part too? I wonder if the new revised part can fit the pre facelift cars?
 
ohh ohh ohhh, me hopes it is... I am eagerly awaiting your post tomorrow. If it works, I am getting myself one ordered :unsure: I can always order the valve itself at a later date if needs be! :angry:
 
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